Hanoi Jane

[Ripsnort]

Actually, it may have been Johnson(VP-Dem) who got Kennedy killed, he certainly didn't want the war to end, his wife had a substantial amount of money tied up in stocks of companies that made war materials.    So much for that theory, Towd.  

[ah1g]

Toad,

   Don't know if this the answer you're looking for but here goes    In 1944 (late I think) the O.S.S. sent a group into French Indo-China, occupied by the Japanese, to work with the local guerrillas in aiding downed Allied air personnel.  One of the locals was none other than Ho Chi Minh.  The history I've read stated that Ho (tho a dedicated Communist) had proposed a Constitution based upon ours, whether this was just a political ploy on his part to gain our support I have no idea.  FDR was pressuring both the Brits and the French to give up their colonial assets supposedly.  Wonder how things would have evolved in SEA if FDR had completed his 4th term.  Rambling mode off now  

[StSanta]

JFK was killed by an SAS soldier using secret ricochet shooting techniques to save the queen.

That's one of my takes on it.



------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Toad]

Well, I was actually thinking of the post-WW2 American involvement in VietNam.

From:http://www.landscaper.net/timelin.htm

12 Feb 55 - President Eisenhower's administration sends the first U.S. advisers to South Vietnam to train the South Vietnamese Army

From:http://members.tripod.com/paulrparker/namhist/

July 8, 1959 - Two U.S. military advisors, Maj. Dale Buis and Sgt. Chester Ovnand, are killed by Viet Minh guerrillas at Bien Hoa, South Vietnam. They are the first American deaths in the Second Indochina War which Americans will come to know simply as The Vietnam War.


May 1961 - President Kennedy sends 400 American Green Beret 'Special Advisors' to South Vietnam to train South Vietnamese soldiers in methods of 'counter-insurgency' in the fight against Viet Cong guerrillas.

October 24, 1961 - On the sixth anniversary of the Republic of South Vietnam, President Kennedy sends a letter to President Diem and pledges "the United States is determined to help Vietnam preserve its independence..."

President Kennedy then sends additional military advisors along with American helicopter units to transport and direct South Vietnamese troops in battle, thus involving Americans in combat operations. Kennedy justifies the expanding U.S. military role as a means "...to prevent a Communist takeover of Vietnam which is in accordance with a policy our government has followed since 1954." The number of military advisors sent by Kennedy will eventually surpass 16,000.

December 1961 - Viet Cong guerrillas now control much of the countryside in South Vietnam and frequently ambush South Vietnamese troops. The cost to America of maintaining South Vietnam's sagging 200,000 man army and managing the overall conflict in Vietnam rises to a million dollars per day.

Now, towd...maybe I missed something in your post. Kennedy tried to get us OUT of VietNam?

 

Let's not even talk about Lyndon!



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 12-11-2000).]

[MrLars]

 

Originally posted by -towd_:


my best freind cant sleep at night for 33 years cause some company wanted to sell airplains and guns. so at 20 he had to cut peoples heads off ( to get the 5th of wiskey bounty from his co for every dead gook)

Understand this....never have I seen this during my almost 5 years in country. The worst I ever saw was the removal of the left ear to support a bodycount. If this <beheading> happened <by our troops and sanctioned by their CO> at all it was an isolated incident but I seriously doubt it. The prize of a fifth of whiskey would have taken second place to a sixpack of ice cold beer.

'nother thing....stay away from the racial slurs. They were soldiers and civilians fighting for what they thought was right....as were we.

Your friend would benefit from the support groups located at every VA hospital. I had nightmares for almost 10 years 'till I attended one. in 4 sessions over 4 weeks I finally got rid of them...and made some good friends that I could "talk" to.

Lars

[10Bears]

Toad, Toads right.. JFK started airlifting the advisers out in the summer of '63
Its a fact..
10Bears

[Toad]

10Bears...

I can't find any mention of withdrawal of troops under Kennedy. Can you provide a link?

I did find this at the same place:

September 2, 1963 - During a TV news interview with Walter Cronkite, President Kennedy describes Diem as "out of touch with the people" and adds that South Vietnam's government might regain popular support "with changes in policy and perhaps in personnel."

Also during the interview, Kennedy comments on America's commitment to Vietnam "If we withdrew from Vietnam, the Communists would control Vietnam. Pretty soon, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Malaya, would go..."

October 5, 1963 - Lodge informs President Kennedy that the coup against Diem appears to be on again.

The rebel generals, led by Duong Van "Big" Minh, first ask for assurances that U.S. aid to South Vietnam will continue after Diem's removal and that the U.S. will not interfere with the actual coup. This scenario suits the White House well, in that the generals will appear to acting on their own without any direct U.S. involvement. President Kennedy gives his approval. The CIA in Saigon then signals the conspirators that the United States will not interfere with the overthrow of President Diem.
November 2, 1963 - At 3 a.m., one of Diem's aides betrays his location to the generals. The hunt for Diem and Nhu now begins. At 6 a.m., Diem telephones the generals. Realizing the situation is hopeless, Diem and Nhu offer to surrender from inside a Catholic church. Diem and Nhu are then taken into custody by rebel officers and placed in the back of an armored personnel carrier. While traveling to Saigon, the vehicle stops and Diem and Nhu are assassinated.

At the White House, a meeting is interrupted with the news of Diem's death. According to witnesses, President Kennedy's face turns a ghostly shade of white and he immediately leaves the room. Later, the President records in his private diary, "I feel that we must bear a good deal of responsibility for it."

November 22, 1963 - President John F. Kennedy is assassinated in Dallas. Lyndon B. Johnson is sworn in as the 36th U.S. President. He is the fourth President coping with Vietnam and will oversee massive escalation of the war while utilizing many of the same policy advisors who served Kennedy.

November 24, 1963 - President Johnson declares he will not "lose Vietnam" during a meeting with Ambassador Lodge in Washington.

[easymo]

 I wondered if towd would get away with that particular fairy tale. Guess not

 Kennedy loved warfare. Read any number of biographys. He was the first head of state in centuries to personally design a military uniform.

 The Democrats may have killed him . According to Harry Truman. His dad outright bought the democratic nomination to President for him.

[Eagler]

always thought the Vietnam problem was an internal civil war turned external by "helping" foreign powers.

as for Kennedy, his group informed my grandfather, Michael V. DiSalle, that it would be in his best political interest if he were to withdraw his name from the list of Democratic nominees in 1960.  http://politicalgraveyard.com/parties/D/1960/index.html It's my understanding he was not the only one pressured to withdraw. It's also my understanding that Nixon would have won that election if the election was not rigged in various ways for Kennedy to win. Daddy Joe throwing around his money and help from his influential "friends". Another democrat playing their game. Deja Vu ?

How bout that Jesse Jackson, gotta love him  

Eagler

[straffo]

 

Originally posted by ah1g:
Don't know if this the answer you're looking for but here goes   (Image removed from quote.)  In 1944 (late I think) the O.S.S. sent a group into French Indo-China, occupied by the Japanese, to work with the local guerrillas in aiding downed Allied air personnel.  One of the locals was none other than Ho Chi Minh.  The history I've read stated that Ho (tho a dedicated Communist) had proposed a Constitution based upon ours, whether this was just a political ploy on his part to gain our support I have no idea.  FDR was pressuring both the Brits and the French to give up their colonial assets supposedly.  Wonder how things would have evolved in SEA if FDR had completed his 4th term.  Rambling mode off now   (Image removed from quote.)

I won't answer myself :
 

America financed and advised Ho until late 1945, when Truman betrayed him and gave Indochina back to the French. The United States financed and advised the French until 1954--when we betrayed them and gave Indochina to Diem.

From Our Ho - Fact and Fiction by Alan Trustman
You know now why I can't stand Truman ...

[Toad]

Straffo,

I'm not clear on your reason for hating Truman.

Do you hate him because he would not support Ho as the President of the Democratic Republic of VietNam (announced 2 Sep 45)?

Or do you hate him because he authorized $15 million to the French in their fight against the Viet Minh (26 July 1950)?

[Eagler]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
Straffo,

I'm not clear on your reason for hating Truman.

Do you hate him because he would not support Ho as the President of the Democratic Republic of VietNam (announced 2 Sep 45)?

Or do you hate him because he authorized $15 million to the French in their fight against the Viet Minh (26 July 1950)?

$15 million dollars? What's that about 15 cruise missles? 15 of those could have save 10's of 1000's of American boys if we had them then. Just a thought.

Eagler

[Toad]

Well, here's more of the bad news that was in that timeline.  

"July 26, 1950 - United States military involvement in Vietnam begins as President Harry Truman authorizes $15 million in military aid to the French.

American military advisors will accompany the flow of U.S. tanks, planes, artillery and other supplies to Vietnam. Over the next four years, the U.S. will spend $3 Billion on the French war and by 1954 will provide 80 percent of all war supplies used by the French."

************
Root Cause? Colonialism remained alive and well as an idea among the major powers at the end of WW2.
************


"July 1945 - Following the defeat of Nazi Germany, World War II Allies including the U.S., Britain, and Soviet Union, hold the Potsdam Conference in Germany to plan the post-war world. Vietnam is considered a minor item on the agenda.

In order to disarm the Japanese in Vietnam, the Allies divide the country in half at the 16th parallel. Chinese Nationalists will move in and disarm the Japanese north of the parallel while the British will move in and do the same in the south.

During the conference, representatives from France request the return of all French pre-war colonies in Southeast Asia (Indochina). Their request is granted. Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia will once again become French colonies following the removal of the Japanese."

...and so it began.



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 12-12-2000).]

[straffo]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
Straffo,

I'm not clear on your reason for hating Truman.

Do you hate him because he would not support Ho as the President of the Democratic Republic of VietNam (announced 2 Sep 45)?

Or do you hate him because he authorized $15 million to the French in their fight against the Viet Minh (26 July 1950)?

Simple answer : both .

To me (a born 1970 french) Indonesia war was stupid. And Truman 1st helping uncle HO for stopping few month after to help french governement fight in Indonesia instead of rebuilding France was the next stupid act.

If the french governement was not so stupid in 1945/6 I'm pretty sure we will have good relation with our former Colonie (look Tunisia for exemple)
 

the U.S. will spend $3 Billion on the French war and by 1954 will provide 80 percent of all war supplies used by the French.

France as used all the fund of the US Marshall (sp?) plan to colonialist war  
During that time my familly was starving the situation was worst than during the war  

 

Root Cause? Colonialism remained alive and well as an idea among the major powers at the end of WW2.

too bad  

 

...and so it began.

Yep but I don't think that geo politic is simple... you cannot reduce it to french started it all (if it is your point)

[Toad]

I really wasn't making that point.

However, the major points in your post seem to say that you find France at fault.

"instead of rebuilding France was the next stupid act."

I'm fairly sure that a review of the Marshall Plan spending and other aid would show that the US helped France "rebuild". Probably more aid than most other European countries received, in fact.

"If the french governement was not so stupid in 1945/6 I'm pretty sure we will have good
"

Well, blame De Gaulle then, not Truman.

"France as used all the fund of the US Marshall (sp?) plan to colonialist war"

Once again, this would not be the fault of the US President.

To me, the bottom line is colonialism. Had the THREE "great powers" (Britain, US, Soviet Union) denied the claims of ALL nations to restore their "former colonies" we'd have all been better off.