Hanoi Jane

[TheWobble]

ok,ok ,ok


the war in vietnam:
Didnt want to be there, had no reason to be there, the only reason we were there was to "stem the spread of communism" or something like that

Why we did not "win" :
The military had its hands tied and was VERY VERY VERY limited on what it could do because the gov feared that china would directly support the Vietsqueak and the war would escalate.

The solders that went:
they in general didnt want to be there but they had a job to do and for the most part they served their country as was the job.

As P.O.W's
Prisoners were treated worse than animals and the Gooks came right out and told them that the gooks were "a superior race" and did not have to abide by the geniva convention.

Torture:
POW's had ther testicles cut off, had their eyelids cut off, had their finger nails pulled out by pliers, but by far the gook's favorite was to break each finger in about 6 or 7 different places and work and grind the bones around inside.

jane Fonda:
Sided with the gook's because she saw it would make here popular,  when POW's were finally released and spoke of the horrors an torture She called them Liars and filthy pigs even though she knew what they were saying was true.  She also had 3 or 4 solders killed when one of them managed to get close enough to her to pass her a packit containing letters form a bunch of prisoners to tell their families that they were alive and how much they missed them and other stuff.  Upon recieving the letters Fonda went directly to a guard and then pointed out 3 or 4 men who looked like the one that had given her the packit.  Subsiquently they were all beaten severly, 1 died from the beating itself and the other 2 died in their cells because they were not given any food as "punishment".

So given that data I believe that if there is a god in heaven, Jane Fonda will (and should) burn in hell.

[straffo]

TheWobble can you one time avoid using this kind of words : Vietsqueak,Gooks ?

 

So given that data I believe that if there is a god in heaven, Jane Fonda will (and should) burn in hell.

Dunno if christinism is different on your side of the Atlantic but you are reserving your own place with this kind of comment.

[TheWobble]

Straffo,
they WERE gook's, scurvy gook squeakes and I hate them for what they did to our boys, fighting a war is one thing, savagly torturing and murdering the enemy prisoners for no other reason than your amusement is another.

Fonda can cook, if she doesent go to hell then Im sure me or anyone else who hasnt commited genocide is pretty safe...

Yup i said Genocide, Sorry Hitler and and that itaiain guy whos name i wont attempt to spell, your still screwed  

[straffo]

 

Originally posted by TheWobble:
Straffo,
they WERE gook's, scurvy gook squeakes and I hate them for what they did to our boys, fighting a war is one thing, savagly torturing and murdering the enemy prisoners for no other reason than your amusement is another.

Fonda can cook, if she doesent go to hell then Im sure me or anyone else who hasnt commited genocide is pretty safe...

Yup i said Genocide, Sorry Hitler and and that itaiain guy whos name i wont attempt to spell, your still screwed    (Image removed from quote.)

You would better have a rest and try to calm down a bit.
Where I've said that I find torture funny ?
To be bastard is not reserved to "gook" or "vietsqueak" it's in the nature of the human.

As I don't know all the fact about the american part of the vietnam war I won't comment further about torture.
But in all country (USA included) the guard of the POW camp are not the more intelligent soldier they are often the more dum and dull.

[TheWobble]

I ment "your amusement" as in the gooks amusement, I iterate things badly at time my bad.  But regardless wether the "war" was just or not that is no reason to do the things they did to many of our folks.  There are just some thing a person should no be able to lit themselves do, and i would say cutting someone elses balls off for chuckle would fall under that catagory, as would sitting 5 POW's at a table and making them play russian roulette, which was done quite often aswell, but in many cases the POW wanted the gun to go off, after being tortured and beaten and watching your friends die day after day for years i would too.

And alot of times the guards at the camps were either A: handsomehunkes
B: wounded or somewhat hurt solders pulled back (rare) but either way, they were ordered to do what they did, they also just happened to enjoy it.

[straffo]

Well ... I understand your point but not the words.

[blur]

This subject seems to be opening some old wounds and I hesitate to delve deeper, but ah, what the hell.  


Ah, OK then. Two of my UPT classmates were guests at the Hanoi Hilton. When Janie visited her buddies these two gentlemen, among many others, had the absolute SH*T beat out of them by the Hilton staff in celebration of the visit. The guards made a point of mentioning Janie during the beatings. The most senior of these two guys (about 6 years in the Hilton) said he never was beaten so frequently and so savagely as he was while Janie was in town.

How does that one score then? Did Janie's little illegal visit harm another?


Obviously I don't condone beating and torture but let's look at your friend's situation from the viewpoint of personal responsibility. I don't know why they ended up at the Hanoi Hilton but it's a safe bet they weren't dropping nylons and candy bars from a cargo plane when they were captured.

If I were a Vietnamese peasant and I saw my wife or kids get killed by an air strike and the pilot was shot down nearby, well I'd probably be inclined to stick my pitchfork up his ass. A POW captured under these circumstances should feel very fortunate he's allowed to live. If he's killed or tortured after confinement then that's a different story, as now there's a malicious intent involved and it's not during the heat of battle. So yes the guards were amazinhunks. And yes Jane creates her own karma as well if any of her actions were negative.


Does any old armed conflict qualify under this clause? WW1? WW2? Korea? The Civil War? Or just the ones a particular individual does not happen to approve of?


Yes, any armed conflict. Ask yourself, when does war end? Doesn't it end when the young men of the world refuse to pick up a weapon? I don't claim to be a Christian but didn't Jesus mention turning the other cheek? I don't take this to mean weakness. I take it to mean turning one's attention away from something undesirable. For in the end we all create our own reality.

Peace.

[AKDejaVu]

Blur,

What shows your complete and total ignorance is that you state everything as if it were the US versus innocent women and children in Vietnam.

People like you make me wonder who was manning anti-aircraft batteries... machine guns... and mortars for the North Vietnamese.

Of course, the North Vietnamese were only battling US agression against its people.  This ideology is what made Jane Fonda ignorant... and you also.  She had being 19 during a very rebelous time as an excuse for being so stupid.  How about you?

AKDejaVu

[TheWobble]

Blur.
"I take it to mean turning one's attention away from something undesirable"

Yea, alot of countries did that when Hitler invaded poland, and look where it went from there.

[Toad]

First off:  Wobble, it has generally been proven by asking the POWS themselves that the Hanoi Janie "notepassing/murder" incident did not happen. Do a search for Hanoi Jane and you'll find a few prominent ex-POW's that discredit that one. We must be fair to the worthless...loose woman.   There's plenty she did do that is damning enough.

Blur (or is this really Nash?  ,

I don't know why they ended up at the Hanoi Hilton but it's a safe bet they weren't dropping nylons and candy bars from a cargo plane when they were captured.

No. One was an EW in an RB-66 and the other was an F-4 GIB. What they were doing was following their orders as issued by the Chain of Command of their legally and lawfully constitued government.

I surmise from your posts so far that you have trouble with that "government" concept as well. So you'd feel free to ignore those orders if they didn't suit your belief system, right?

You didn't answer that previous question: Why haven't we seen a society such as the one you propose in the entire history of the human race? Come on now, enlighten us.

A POW captured under these circumstances should feel very fortunate he's allowed to live.

So now you are condoning killing those who have surrendered? This system of yours is pretty flexible, isn't it? I take it the killer's karma would then change negatively? ROFLMAO.

Yes, any armed conflict. Ask yourself, when does war end?

Ask yourself "When does war start?" When some mean ole SOB decides his neighbor has something he wants and the neighbor is highly unlikely to be able to effectively resist. Or when "gods collide" as in Bosnia and Palestine and tens of thousands of men, women and children pay with their lives for "turning the other cheek" and turning their attention away from the muzzle of that Makrov pointed at their foreheads, since it is so "undesirable".

I guess you'd be in the lotus position when they came to do you and your family, right? Of course, if a downed "enemy" airman landed in your front yard first, you'll give him the old pitchfork, right? Hope you're keeping all your beliefs straight...they're pretty subjective and confusing to me.  

..and just so I'm personally commfortable with where I think you're coming from, please answer this previouslly ignored question as well:

After we left, while the North Vietnamese were freely dispensing artillery, mortars, rockets, hand grenades and machine gun bullets among the South Vietnamese...from the business end of these weapons...and were maiming and torturing the peasant population in the South, just what was Hanoi Jane doing then?

[AKDejaVu]

 

After we left, while the North Vietnamese were freely dispensing artillery, mortars, rockets, hand grenades and machine gun bullets among the South Vietnamese...from the business end of these weapons...and were maiming and torturing the peasant population in the South, just what was Hanoi Jane doing then?

By then she'd moved on to the next cool cause of the time.  Or was she making Barbarella?

I'm not a big fan of Jane Fonda.  I do believe she was a stupid child when she went to North Vietnam.  I do believe that if she had the benefit of hindsight, she would not have done it.

That said.. she is the only "peacemaker" (right blur?) that I've ever seen hop into an enemy anti-aircraft gun.  For that, I can see how many will never forgive her.  I don't really know that I have... I guess I'd just prefer to let it go.

AKDejaVu

[blur]

No. One was an EW in an RB-66 and the other was an F-4 GIB. What they were doing was following their orders as issued by the Chain of Command of their legally and lawfully constitued government.


Again it all comes down to personal choice. If you want to give away your personal integrity and become an automation for the government then fine that's your choice.  Just don't start whining when you find yourself in a world of toejam and some "gooks" are using your testicles for an ashtray.


I surmise from your posts so far that you have trouble with that "government" concept as well. So you'd feel free to ignore those orders if they didn't suit your belief system, right?


If the government shoved a rifle in my hands and told me to go and kill people or they'd kill me, well quite frankly it's time for a new government.

Yes, I'm espousing a subjective philosophy. You see I believe that people are basically good and that governments come and go like new hairstyles.


You didn't answer that previous question: Why haven't we seen a society such as the one you propose in the entire history of the human race? Come on now, enlighten us.


This is pure conjecture mind you, but a more enlightened society probably wouldn't feel a need to record a history and then constantly live in the past as we do. It's kind of dysfunctional I suppose.


So now you are condoning killing those who have surrendered? This system of yours is pretty flexible, isn't it? I take it the killer's karma would then change negatively? ROFLMAO.


If you look at my explanation more closely you'll see that I made a differentiation between "heat of battle" and the more cold-blooded "malicious intent".


..and just so I'm personally commfortable with where I think you're coming from, please answer this previouslly ignored question as well:

After we left, while the North Vietnamese were freely dispensing artillery, mortars, rockets, hand grenades and machine gun bullets among the South Vietnamese...from the business end of these weapons...and were maiming and torturing the peasant population in the South, just what was Hanoi Jane doing then?


Not sure, making a movie perhaps?

[AKDejaVu]

 

If the government shoved a rifle in my hands and told me to go and kill people or they'd kill me, well quite frankly it's time for a new government.

ROTFLMAO!  Read this statement one or two more times blur.  Read it VERY carefully.  Now answer these two questions:

1.  What would the US do to draftee's that refused to go enlist?

2.  What would the North Vietnamese do to draftee's that refused to enlist.

You are a walking contradiction.

AKDejaVu

[AKDejaVu]

BTW Blur, I haven't seen where anyone was trying to glamorize the US involvement in the Vietnam conflict.

Why do you insist on glamorizing Jane Fonda's and the North Vietnamese?

People were fighting over there.. for whatever cause.  Little you can say will justify the atrocities that happened to anyone in that country.  Little you can say will convince anyone that the US is the only one that committed those atrocities.  Little you can say will detere from the fact that Jane Fonda went and sat in an anti-aircraft gun that was aimed at her own country's soldiers... with a smile on here face.  Little you can say will deter from the fact that Jane Fonda has since proven that here political affiliations are about as fly-by-night as they get.  Little you can say will detere from the fact that most people that condemned the US soldiers in Vietnam are truly sorry that they did it.  Nothing you will say will deter from the fact that most people that are sorry for what they said/did during Vietnam are really only PC much like they were during Vietnam... only the PC pendulum has swung in a different direction.

Anti-Vietnam became a fad.  It became so much of a fad that many US citizens failed to realize what it really meant to have friends and family die over there.  They were too busy with other pursuits.  Its easy to protest about numbers you read in a paper... a whole different thing to deal with losing your brother/son/friend in a senseless war.

AKDejaVu

[Fatty]

Blur, it's too bad men of your character were not around in the 40s.  We would have never gotten involved in that messy world war thing.  After all Hitler was basically a good guy, and goverments come and go like new hairstyles.

(how, exactly, do you think they go.  They get bored and move out of power?)