Author Topic: Hanoi Jane  (Read 4926 times)

Offline straffo

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« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2000, 10:28:00 AM »
It's really hard to have a discution with my bad english ...  
 
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I really wasn't making that point.
so I've understand right.great  

 
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However, the major points in your post seem to say that you find France at fault.
Sure ! btw not the nation (the people) but the governement.

 
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I'm fairly sure that a review of the Marshall Plan spending and other aid would show that the US helped France "rebuild". Probably more aid than most other European countries received, in fact.


I live in Normandie we from time to time find allied/axis bombs,mines, dead body and  wreck 45 year after the war.
The town in wich I live got destructed at 95% (Evreux) my former locations were Brest/Caen/Nantes/StNazaire (in StNazaire the german have surrender after the 8 May 1945 imagine the landscape) just check on the web the picture of those town after the war.
Don't forget also that in France almost all railroad and communication nodes (sp?) where destroyed either by bombing or sabotage, lot of plant got destroyed too ,it has a cost !

I know it was the same for Germany ...

 
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"If the french governement was not so stupid in 1945/6 I'm pretty sure we will have good "

Well, blame De Gaulle then, not Truman.

Wrong he was not any more in the goverment   but you cannot know french history like me that's normal  

 
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"France as used all the fund of the US Marshall (sp?) plan to colonialist war"
Once again, this would not be the fault of the US President.
For me it was his responsability to force the French governement to have good usage of this money.
When you have the money you have the power !

 
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To me, the bottom line is colonialism. Had the THREE "great powers" (Britain, US, Soviet Union) denied the claims of ALL nations to restore their "former colonies" we'd have all been better off.

Don't know it's now history

[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 12-12-2000).]

Offline Toad

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« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2000, 11:36:00 AM »
From:  http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/2/0,5716,36912+2+36216,00.html

"De Gaulle's successful campaign to edge Giraud out gave the world proof of his skill in political maneuver. On Sept. 9, 1944, he and his shadow government returned from Algiers to Paris. He headed two successive provisional governments but, on Jan. 20, 1946, abruptly resigned, apparently owing to irritation with the political parties forming the coalition government."

From:  http://members.tripod.com/paulrparker/namhist/

September 22, 1945 - In South Vietnam, 1400 French soldiers released by the British from former Japanese internment camps enter Saigon and go on a deadly rampage, attacking Viet Minh and killing innocent civilians including children, aided by French civilians who joined the rampage. An estimated 20,000 French civilians live in Saigon.

September 24, 1945 - In Saigon, Viet Minh successfully organize a general strike shutting down all commerce along with electricity and water supplies. In a suburb of Saigon, members of Binh Xuyen, a Vietnamese criminal organization, massacre 150 French and Eurasian civilians, including children. General Phillipe LeClerc is named Commander of French Forces(Foreign Legion).

October 1945 - 35,000 French soldiers under the command of World War II General Jacques Philippe Leclerc arrive in South Vietnam to restore French rule. Viet Minh immediately begin a guerrilla campaign to harass them. The French then succeed in expelling the Viet Minh from Saigon. The Viet Minh attack the French in the North."

Straffo, I am sure you have a better grasp of French history than I. However, it does seem that DeGaulle was head of the provisional French government when France sent LeClerc and 35,000 troops to VietNam in October of 1945. That sort of stands, in my mind, as the real beginning of the armed conflict against the VietMinh. The philosophical lines were drawn and troops committed.

DeGaulle, as provisional President of the government, had to be a part of that decision. Most likely, he himself made the final decision "to restore French rule".

After DeGaulle resigned, the assembly chose the Socialist Félix Gouin to immediately replace him. Shortly thereafter, in January of '47 another Socialist, Vincent Auriol, became President and he lasted until 1954. Of course, in 1954, the French finally withdrew from VietNam.

So, it appears to me that DeGaulle made the initial decision to commit French troops and to reclaim VietNam as a French colony. The Socialists continued on this course and prosecuted the war to it's unsuccessful conclusion.

As for the rest, if you find the French Government at fault, how do you exonerate the nation (people)? Are not the people the ones that elect the Government? Is not the Government an extension of the people's will (theoretically   )

As far as France being destroyed by the war...yes, it suffered heavily. Are you saying that somehow the US should have been solely responsible for rebuilding all the damage?

Who bears the responsibility for the rapid military collapse of France under the German blitzkrieg? Is not this collapse the basis for the later destruction of France?

I'm not sure you want to point fingers and assign liability for destruction. You eventually get to the place where you have to choose between the desire for a destructive liberation or continued occupation.
 
As far as Truman "forcing" the French Government to spend the money wisely, you KNOW this was impossible. The very idea of "les Americains" dictating ANYTHING to the French, particularly in that era, is laughable. No, it was the responsibility of the French people to make sure their Government spent the money properly. It was most certainly NOT the responsibility of the US!  



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 12-12-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

LJK Raubvogel

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« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2000, 12:44:00 PM »
I think you guys are agreeing, but it's not coming out right  I'm sure straffo doesn't mean to blame the US for the destruction cause by WWII. I mean after all, should we have not intervened, and left the Germans in France?  

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Offline straffo

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« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2000, 01:44:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
I think you guys are agreeing, but it's not coming out right   I'm sure straffo doesn't mean to blame the US for the destruction cause by WWII. I mean after all, should we have not intervened, and left the Germans in France?  


right   we agree on most point  

Offline straffo

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« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2000, 02:54:00 PM »
It's about to be completly unreadable
Quote over quote over quote over ...

 
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"De Gaulle's successful campaign to edge Giraud out gave the world proof of his skill in political maneuver. On Sept. 9, 1944, he and his shadow government returned from Algiers to Paris. He headed two successive provisional governments but, on Jan. 20, 1946, abruptly resigned,apparently owing to irritation with the political parties forming the coalition government."
Part of the his decision was because of the former colonie treatemant reserved by the sucker who didn't learn anything during the war (the political "elite" was the same before and after the war ...)

 
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September 22, 1945 - In South Vietnam, 1400 French soldiers released by the British from former Japanese internment camps enter Saigon and go on a deadly rampage, attacking Viet Minh and killing innocent civilians including children, aided by French civilians who joined the rampage. An estimated 20,000 French civilians live in Saigon.
It's a shame and I'm pretty aware of this "comportement de BARBARE!" (sorry havn't a dico near) french army redone this sometime after in Madagascar  and in Algeria and during the campaing of Italia ...

 
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September 24, 1945 - In Saigon, Viet Minh successfully organize a general strike shutting down all commerce along with electricity and water supplies. In a suburb of Saigon, members of Binh Xuyen, a Vietnamese criminal organization, massacre 150 French and Eurasian civilians, including children. General Phillipe LeClerc is named Commander of French Forces(Foreign Legion).
Yep but not only foreign legion, regular trops where involved too (+ colonial troops)
 
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October 1945 - 35,000 French soldiers under the command of World War II General Jacques Philippe Leclerc arrive in South Vietnam to restore French rule. Viet Minh immediately begin a guerrilla campaign to harass them. The French then succeed in expelling the Viet Minh from Saigon. The Viet Minh attack the French in the North."
Recall something no ?

 
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Straffo, I am sure you have a better grasp of French history than I. However, it does seem that DeGaulle was head of the provisional French government when France sent LeClerc and 35,000 troops to VietNam in October of 1945. That sort of stands, in my mind, as the real beginning of the armed conflict against the VietMinh. The philosophical lines were drawn and troops committed.
You can compare the power of the president of the IIIrd republic to the power of the Queen in England ... pretty NULL !
That's why when he was recalled in 1958 he organized a "referendum" to change the constitution (the V Républic)
 
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DeGaulle, as provisional President of the government, had to be a part of that decision. Most likely, he himself made the final decision "to restore French rule".
Wrong see above

 
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After DeGaulle resigned, the assembly chose the Socialist Félix Gouin a puppet !to immediately replace him. Shortly thereafter, in January of '47 another Socialist, Vincent Auriol, became President and he lasted until 1954. Of course, in 1954, the French finally withdrew from VietNam.
With dishonnor and heavy casualty
 
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So, it appears to me that DeGaulle made the initial decision to commit French troops and to reclaim VietNam as a French colony. The Socialists continued on this course and prosecuted the war to it's unsuccessful conclusion.
The socialist will redo the same in Algeria sometime after

 
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As for the rest, if you find the French Government at fault, how do you exonerate the nation (people)? Are not the people the ones that elect the Government? Is not the Government an extension of the people's will (theoretically    (Image removed from quote.) )
Don't recall a vote for this governement  
It was founded soon after the liberation of France in a hurry.
 
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As far as France being destroyed by the war...yes, it suffered heavily. Are you saying that somehow the US should have been solely responsible for rebuilding all the damage?


Nope it was a "Mal necessaire"/ a price to pay (I really have to find a dictionary  )

 
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Who bears the responsibility for the rapid military collapse of France under the German blitzkrieg? Is not this collapse the basis for the later destruction of France?
WWI who has been a great trauma so the moral was not great and the population was not motivated +diddly* strategie (well almost no strat at all)

But it could have been won with a strategie like Guderian and a better organisation for the army : Compare the renault B1Bis or the Somua to a Panzer  (it's like Zeke against CHog) compare the relative strengh of the Navy ,compare the number of planes ... (btw just compare the rate of loss of the LW during the battle of France it's surprisingly high ! for a country losing the war)
but it's a whatif ...
 
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I'm not sure you want to point fingers and assign liability for destruction. You eventually get to the place where you have to choose between the desire for a destructive liberation or continued occupation.
I'm glad to the Veteran and btw I spent some time each year in the graveyards in my region for them (and even for German, I've a great emotion when I read on the tomb the ages of the german soldat : between 13 and 63 years !).There is some graveyard in where the father and the son are in the same grave .

 
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As far as Truman "forcing" the French Government to spend the money wisely, you KNOW this was impossible. The very idea of "les Americains" dictating ANYTHING to the French, particularly in that era, is laughable. No, it was the responsibility of the French people to make sure their Government spent the money properly. It was most certainly NOT the responsibility of the US!
 
I agree but it's an retro-active hope
I won't say the US are responsible of this situation.

Interresting discution anyway

Frédéric

Offline blur

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« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2000, 06:36:00 AM »
Some good info guys and thanks for your input on Jane Fonda.

So, let me see if I got this:

While the U.S. was dispensing Agent Orange, napalm, iron bombs, rockets, hand grenades and machine gun bullets and was maiming and torturing the peasant population in the South, Hanoi Jane was subverting this process by opening up a dialogue with the North.

I think we should soak her in a vat of Agent Orange for a few days then stick a shotgun up her bony, defoliated bellybutton and blow her brains out!

Hmm…, wait a minute. Many have stated that she went against U.S. laws. Am I wrong or did Hitler and Stalin issue a lot of laws too.  

Offline SOB

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« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2000, 08:25:00 AM »
Wow...Never before have I seen someone's ignorance so summed up in just one post.  Impressive.


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Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2000, 09:09:00 AM »
What SOB said!

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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2000, 12:50:00 PM »
Things are real strange in teddyland these days........

Well Said SOB


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DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2000, 03:58:00 PM »
Blur,

After we left, while the North Vietnamese were dispensing artillery, mortars, rockets, hand grenades and machine gun bullets and were maiming and torturing the peasant population in the South, just what was Hanoi Jane doing then?

At least Joan Baez admitted she was wrong about the N. Viets.

Also, help me out here. Can you provide a list of US laws we should all feel free to disobey at our personal whim?

 

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 12-18-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

funked

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« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2000, 08:20:00 PM »
Blur, I was pretty sure you were a moron.  It is now confirmed.  Congrats.


Offline Eagler

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« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2000, 09:34:00 PM »
Leave blur alone. He can't help it, he had a bad childhood. It's not his fault. blur, how can the government help you?

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Offline blur

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« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2000, 10:15:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by Toad:

<snip>
Also, help me out here. Can you provide a list of US laws we should all feel free to disobey at our personal whim?


First off I realize that law and order is dear to the heart of every conservative so I'm treading on thin ice here.  

I'll give you a general guideline. The laws to be observed are based on the primacy of the individual. In other words an individual should be allowed complete freedom except where his actions harm another.

Laws should not impose morality on others. Things like drug use, prostitution, gambling, homosexual acts, etc., are allowed. Also acts by the government that harm others should be defied. (Vietnam would fall under this one).  

Do you see what would happen? A lot of folks working as judges, lawyers, police, civil servants and soldiers to name a few would be out of business. Everybody would have to get a "real" job.

Okay, I'm a dreamer. Government is a reflection of the will of the people and the people have chosen to give up so much of their freedom to the government that now we're being choked to death. So obviously the people have to change first.

On the left we have a flood of "feel good" social programs and litigation as no one takes responsibility for their actions anymore. On the right we have a focus on things like increased military spending and on moral issues, which lead to more jails filled with people who commit non-violent crime. Both courses will bankrupt this country unless they're stopped. We're writing checks that we can't cash anymore.

Obviously this won't be happening anytime soon, maybe in a couple of generations. Otherwise I feel an economic "adjustment" will hit and we'll have to change the hard way.  

Offline Toad

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« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2000, 10:35:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blur:
I'll give you a general guideline. The laws to be observed are based on the primacy of the individual. In other words an individual should be allowed complete freedom except where his actions harm another.

Ah, OK then. Two of my UPT classmates were guests at the Hanoi Hilton. When Janie visited her buddies these two gentlemen, among many others, had the absolute SH*T beat out of them by the Hilton staff in celebration of the visit. The guards made a point of mentioning Janie during the beatings. The most senior of these two guys (about 6 years in the Hilton) said he never was beaten so frequently and so savagely as he was while Janie was in town.

How does that one score then? Did Janie's little illegal visit harm another?

Also acts by the government that harm others should be defied. (Vietnam would fall under this one).  

Does any old armed conflict qualify under this clause? WW1? WW2? Korea? The Civil War? Or just the ones a particular individual does not happen to approve of?

Do you see what would happen?

Do you? Do you ever wonder why the human race, in all the many, many centuries of our existence has never even come close to a workable society that fits your model?

Dreaming's fine. Unfortunately the real world filled with real humans (some of them really nasty folks) usually intrudes on your dream just about the time the Swedish Bikini Team proposes a quick hand of strip poker!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline easymo

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« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2000, 12:38:00 AM »
 Well, I think we should vote on it.

 No, wait, we already do that. We pick the Commander and chief. And he decides where the troops are going.

  I guess most Americans must have thought we belonged there. They picked the guy who sent us. And the guys who kept us there.