Author Topic: The Ultimate God / Creation Question (Read 1484 times)

Booz · « **Reply #30 on:** August 22, 2005, 07:08:37 PM »

It's turtles all the way down

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #31 on:** August 22, 2005, 07:59:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Rotax447
The only way to describe the quantum vacuum is to place it in Hilbert space. We use complex numbers to describe... the Universe is a strange place!

I've manipulated quantum equations and I know the math proves out and precise predictions are made but I do not think outside our 4 dimensions. I have spent many hours trying to grasp 'curled up' dimensions but I still come around to 'what are they curled up in?' and I find myself falling back into our familiar four ST dimensions. Understanding may be out there someday, but like the flatlander trying to see the third spatial dimension, it may be impossible for anyone of us to truely understand.

My one comforting thought:

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"I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." --- Richard Feynman

He included himself in his statement.

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #32 on:** August 23, 2005, 01:56:47 AM »

That's because he was smart enough to know he didn't have a clue about anything.

hacksaw1 · « **Reply #33 on:** August 23, 2005, 02:07:34 AM »

Cosmic Riddle for the Naturalist

Science involves the empirical observance of surroundings. So in that spirit, let's consider the inverse of Vulcan's question from a naturalist's point of view.

Premise:

The Natural Universe is all that there is. There never was, is or will be God. Natural processes are all that there are, leading to all that there is in existence, including the appearance of sentient human beings.

Scientific Observation:

Millions of sentient human beings past and present conclude the Universe was produced by an Almighty Creator.

Question:

Why did the Natural Universe produce, by entirely natural processes, vast numbers of sentient beings who conclude an Almighty Creator produced the universe?

How could an entirely Natural Universe ever give rise to the idea of an Almighty Creator?

Vulcan · « **Reply #34 on:** August 23, 2005, 03:37:28 AM »

Sometimes people can't explain things, so rather than say "I don't know why" they fill in the blanks.

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #35 on:** August 23, 2005, 03:59:35 AM »

Fear of the unknown. Some of us just can't cope with the fact that they can't control thier lives nor predict the future with any logical sense.

Charon · « **Reply #36 on:** August 23, 2005, 10:41:21 AM »

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Why did the Natural Universe produce, by entirely natural processes, vast numbers of sentient beings who conclude an Almighty Creator produced the universe?

In addition to Siaf and Vulcan, because the concept of true individual death, the end of existince, nothingness can be a daunting thing for sentient beings. A higher, afterlife structure is comforting. FWIW, I can't really logically see the need for a higher creator, should one exist, to particularly add this feature. What purpose does an afterlife serve "the creator." A waste of effort and resources, IMO.

Charon

Westy · « **Reply #37 on:** August 23, 2005, 10:47:38 AM »

Ditto to what Charon said.

"A higher, afterlife structure is comforting"

"Religion is the opium of the masses."

It's one thing I agree with Marx on.

And as Nietzche sais, "Faith is not wanting to know what is true."

Yeager · « **Reply #38 on:** August 23, 2005, 11:42:13 AM »

Its a circle. No beginning, no end. God is a circle.

Westy · « **Reply #39 on:** August 23, 2005, 11:53:56 AM »

"a circle."

Roundabout!

Terror · « **Reply #40 on:** August 23, 2005, 12:10:41 PM »

So if you made them and they made you, who picked up the bill and who made who?

Terror

hacksaw1 · « **Reply #41 on:** August 23, 2005, 12:49:09 PM »

Sorry folks, you are really not getting it.

To reiterate, naturalists say all that there is in the universe is solely the result of natural processes. For them, only natural processes in the universe are responsible for the generation of human awareness, consciousness, and sentience.

What capricious capacity of the entirely natural universe would ever generate the ability of sentient beings to promote an Almighty Creator?

Sorry, your answers are not even dealing with the question. Why am I not surprised. The following statement of the opening post is a fine example of a self-contradictory proposition, which is a strawman to boot. The question strikes me as ridicule, but perhaps not.

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ie can a god exist in non-existance?

A Theistic view of reality says God is a self-existent Being, just as the name "I AM" would indicate. This name also presupposes an eternal-everlasting Being. No beginning, no end. Revealed also is that "in Him we live and move and have our being." This means the finite Universe, no matter how large, is a tiny event relative to the eternal, almighty Being that brought it forth, and who sustains at all times.

If the universe were solely the product of purely natural processes there is no logical reason why sentient beings who are solely natural products should ever even come up with the idea of an Almighty Creator, much less base their entire life on the understanding that the Creator sustains the universe at all times.

Don't believe? No proof? Sorry, there's no good reason to believe a solely natural universe should ever be capable of supporting the idea of an Almighty Creator. But low and behold, the real universe that we live in does. So although I was once an atheist, I will never be returning to that belief system. Beyond that, anyone who knows the Creator must say that the invitation is open and free for anyone who wants to contact Him. Just remember though, demands won't get you anywhere.

Best regards,

Cement

myelo · « **Reply #42 on:** August 23, 2005, 01:16:31 PM »

Question:

Why did the Natural Universe produced by entirely natural processes, produce vast numbers of sentient beings who concluded the sun was pulled across the sky by a giant chariot?

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #43 on:** August 23, 2005, 01:25:13 PM »

Much the same reason why the earth was a pancake, covered with a punctured solid dome. And remember the church executed those who wanted to suggest otherwise.

Today, unless the space program is one big hoax, we have undisputed proof that the religious approach was and is dead wrong in all imaginable (pun intended) aspects.

ChickenHawk · « **Reply #44 on:** August 23, 2005, 01:29:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by myelo
Question:

Why did the Natural Universe produced by entirely natural processes, produce vast numbers of sentient beings who concluded the sun was pulled across the sky by a giant chariot?

I think the difference is that the chariot thing was a passing fad while the belief in one Creator has always been there throughout history.