Author Topic: The American Civil War (Read 2681 times)

lazs2 · « **Reply #30 on:** August 25, 2005, 02:25:37 PM »

well... here we don't live in iraq or germany... we also get a kick out of celebrating kicking the brits out and firing the shot heard round the world.... the beginning of the end of kings rule in the world.

I think most Americans also realize that states rights are very important and that it is not a bad idea to remind people that citizens will take on governments. In another civil war based soley on states rights the battle lines might be drawn more like the election maps of blue and red that we see and might have a much different outcome than our little conflict of 1860.

Those (on either side of the issue) who make a racial issue of the confederate flag and such are simply pushing personal agenda's and really do know better

lazs

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #31 on:** August 25, 2005, 03:24:17 PM »

Funny that back then, the Democrats were the State's Rights advocates, and the Republicans the ones who believed the Federal rule was always the right one. Also funny that the Democrats were the ones most defensive of the institution of Slavery, while today they hold most of the Black vote. In the election of 1860, Lincoln was often shown by Southerners in effigy being held by a female slave, and saying things like voting for Republicans was voting for (insert racial "N word" epithet here) lovers. Nowadays the Republicans can barely field Black voters, let alone candidates.

People never cease to amaze me. Who needs TV? Real History is better than any soap opera.

Samiam · « **Reply #32 on:** August 25, 2005, 05:24:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by rpm

...
The Civil War has been politicized to the point not many people really know what it was about, and it wasn't slavery.
...
Slavery was an issue, but it was not the main reason. It was economic.

Quote

Originally posted by Gunslinger

Although slavery was AT THE HEART of the sectional impasse between North and South in 1860, it was not the singular cause of the Civil War. Rather, it was the multitude of differences arising from the slavery issue that impelled the Southern states to secede.

It is more accurate to say that slavery was the fundamental issue behind the civil war and that the political spin is that it was all about states rights than vice versa.

You can make a valid point that it wasn't about slavery in the sense that southerners we all evil spirited people who enjoyed slavery and relished in dehumanizing an entire race of people. Rather, in fact, it was about preserving slavery because the economy of the south was largely dependent on it - so yes, it was economic. But slavery was still at the heart of the issue.

As for the confederate flag: I can see how many people see it as their heritage and don't believe there is anything racial about it.

But try to look at it this way:

We revere the United States flag not simply because it is our heritage, but because of all that it symbolizes - freedom, liberty, justice. To many, the confederate flag doesn't just represent a southern heritage, it symbolizes the principles and values that went into the creation of the confederacy and slavery was right up there on the list.

Can't you see that it's perfectly understandible how someone might take offence at the continued exhaltation of a symbol that represented a "nation" that was, by and large, formed on the principle of legalized slavery?

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #33 on:** August 25, 2005, 09:38:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Samiam
It is more accurate to say that slavery was the fundamental issue behind the civil war and that the political spin is that it was all about states rights than vice versa.

In December 1860, that's what the South Carolina Legislature wrote down as their reasons for the action they took but apparently they didn't know what they were talking about.

Widewing · « **Reply #34 on:** August 25, 2005, 10:00:04 PM »

Go up on USENET to alt.war.civil.usa and you can engage in a lively debate about the causes of the ACW (American Civil War).

My regards,

Widewing

rpm · « **Reply #35 on:** August 25, 2005, 11:12:46 PM »

Holden, did South Carolina delare for all the states, or just South Carolina? I can pull contextual quotes out of 1000 documents. It does not mean they are all 100% correct.

Godzilla · « **Reply #36 on:** August 26, 2005, 01:01:24 AM »

The civil war was not about slavery primarily. The CSA's constitution was almost an exact copy of the USA's. The CSA banned any import of slaves, but did not ban slavery.

The CSA did not require states to have legalized slavery. The main issue for the CSA was states rights.

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #37 on:** August 26, 2005, 01:22:18 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by rpm
Holden, did South Carolina delare for all the states, or just South Carolina? I can pull contextual quotes out of 1000 documents. It does not mean they are all 100% correct.

South Carolina declared for themselves. They had tried this before, but always tried to get a group together and do it all at once. Someone always chickened out, and they dropped it. This time they just did it, hoping the others would follow. And they did.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #38 on:** August 26, 2005, 02:02:20 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by rpm
Holden, did South Carolina delare for all the states, or just South Carolina? I can pull contextual quotes out of 1000 documents. It does not mean they are all 100% correct.

Did you read their declaration? Read it and tell me that slavery wasn't the driving force in that declaration.

As South Carolina was the first to declare it seems that they were the leader.

Since no free states followed SC it also seems that should tell us something about the importance of the slavery issue.

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #39 on:** August 26, 2005, 02:25:59 AM »

I blame France.

lazs2 · « **Reply #40 on:** August 26, 2005, 08:08:53 AM »

I think the confederate flag should be respected as a sign of American bravery and a symbol of states rights. If you wish to make an issue of biggotry out of it then that is your problem... Why would a confederate flag not be considered "free speech" since so many here have told me that flags are speech...

burn em... wave em... are not both things covered in "free speech"?

lazs

Samiam · « **Reply #41 on:** August 26, 2005, 09:16:26 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
I think the confederate flag should be respected as a sign of American bravery and a symbol of states rights. If you wish to make an issue of biggotry out of it then that is your problem... Why would a confederate flag not be considered "free speech" since so many here have told me that flags are speech...

burn em... wave em... are not both things covered in "free speech"?

lazs

Absolutely it's free speech. Nobody has suggested taking away your right to fly the stars 'n bars.

But your choosing to view it as a symbol of american bravery and states rights is your own personal politically correct spin.

Can you not unsterstand how, just as we view Old Glory as symbolizing the principles on which the US was founded - life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness - that some might view the flying of the confederate flag as revering the principles on which the confederacy was founded, the primary one being the right to keep slaves?

It a little like respecting the accomplishments of the Germans in WWII - the amazing engineering, superior tanks and aircraft, even battle tactics - and saying you're going to fly the Nazi flag to honor those accomplishments - not acknowledging that the Nazi flag may symbolize something else to others.

And you have every free speech right to fly the Nazi flag, if that's the way you want to present yourself to your neighbors (even if your intentions are strictly honorable, I'm guessing you'd have a hard time convincing people of that).

lazs2 · « **Reply #42 on:** August 26, 2005, 09:54:22 AM »

The south was wrong on the issue of slavery... It was very much right on the issue of states rights.

I think that the countless acts of honor and bravery that southern soldiers showed durring the civil war far exceeds any racial overtones of the war. I do not believe that most who fought for the North fought because they wished to abolish slavery. I believe that slavery was the PC reson for the federal government to take more control over the states.

lazs

Chairboy · « **Reply #43 on:** August 26, 2005, 10:07:53 AM »

First of all, I agree with much of what you say here, Lasz2, regarding the issue of states rights and the confederates. I'd like to play devils advocate on one point. You mention that the acts of bravery of the soldiers "far exceeds any racial overtones of the war". Can this same criteria be applied to the Nazis? German soldiers did many brave things. Look at folks like Otto Skorzeny, for instance. Crazy, yes. An SS bastard? You betcha. Coward? Hell no!

Do those actions mean make it so that a swastika should be flown with pride by those proud of the 'brave actions and accomplishments of a scrappy little country the size of Oregon that took on the rest of the world and almost won'?

If the answer is no, which it is to me, I think that it's not because of any inherent moral superiority of one group over another, but instead because not enough time has passed for the 'romantic notions' to fully take hold.

Ask a Yankee in 1900 about the CSA, he'd shake his head sadly and describe the treachery, horrific bloodshed, and attrocities of the war. Ask a Yankee today, and he'll describe the brave, honorable southerners who were misguided but just doing what they thought was right. 50 years from now, people will look back at the confederates with the same glowing admiration given to the 'noble savage', the way people think of native americans today.

50 years from now, I betcha we'll see swastikas in (flying?) car windows, not because there are a bunch of skinheads taking over, but because the 'romantic image' of the Nazis will be where the CSA is in our heads right now.

Samiam · « **Reply #44 on:** August 26, 2005, 10:20:47 AM »

I'm with Chairboy, lazs.

Most German soldiers (and engineers) acted with astounding bravery and their only motivation was to preserve the Fatherland. They were not motivated by racial superiority or a desire to conquer. But most people today rightly view the Nazi flag as symbolizing the gastly principles of the Nazi regime, and not the skilled and honorable soldiers fighting for their fatherland.

Same for the confederate flag.

States right was (and is) a critical issue and many soldiers on the front were likely fighting only to preserve their right to choose their own destiny and not necessarily out of any racial malice. That does not negate the fact that the confederate flag strongly symbolizes the political and moral principles of the seceded states and these were largely founded on the right to keep slaves.