Author Topic: The American Civil War  (Read 2907 times)

Offline DREDIOCK

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The American Civil War
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2005, 09:50:17 AM »



Walter Williams

 The Civil War wasn't about slavery

THE PROBLEMS THAT LED TO THE CIVIL WAR are the same problems today ---- big, intrusive government. The reason we don't face the specter of another Civil War is because today's Americans don't have yesteryear's spirit of liberty and constitutional respect, and political statesmanship is in short supply.

Actually, the war of 1861 was not a civil war. A civil war is a conflict between two or more factions trying to take over a government. In 1861, Confederate President Jefferson Davis was no more interested in taking over Washington than George Washington was interested in taking over England in 1776. Like Washington, Davis was seeking independence. Therefore, the war of 1861 should be called "The War Between the States" or the "War for Southern Independence." The more bitter southerner might call it the "War of Northern Aggression."

 
History books have misled today's Americans to believe the war was fought to free slaves.

Statements from the time suggest otherwise. In President Lincoln's first inaugural address, he said, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so."

During the war, in an 1862 letter to the New York Daily Tribune editor Horace Greeley, Lincoln said, "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery." A recent article by Baltimore's Loyola College Professor Thomas DiLorenzo titled "The Great Centralizer," in The Independent Review (Fall 1998), cites quotation after quotation of similar northern sentiment about slavery.

Lincoln's intentions, as well as that of many northern politicians, were summarized by Stephen Douglas during the presidential debates. Douglas accused Lincoln of wanting to "impose on the nation a uniformity of local laws and institutions and a moral homogeneity dictated by the central government" that "place at defiance the intentions of the republic's founders." Douglas was right, and Lincoln's vision for our nation has now been accomplished beyond anything he could have possibly dreamed.

A precursor for a War Between the States came in 1832, when South Carolina called a convention to nullify tariff acts of 1828 and 1832, referred to as the "Tariffs of Abominations." A compromise lowering the tariff was reached, averting secession and possibly war. The North favored protective tariffs for their manufacturing industry. The South, which exported agricultural products to and imported manufactured goods from Europe, favored free trade and was hurt by the tariffs. Plus, a northern-dominated Congress enacted laws similar to Britain's Navigation Acts to protect northern shipping interests.

Shortly after Lincoln's election, Congress passed the highly protectionist Morrill tariffs.

That's when the South seceded, setting up a new government. Their constitution was nearly identical to the U.S. Constitution except that it outlawed protectionist tariffs, business handouts and mandated a two-thirds majority vote for all spending measures.

The only good coming from the War Between the States was the abolition of slavery. The great principle enunciated in the Declaration of Independence that "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" was overturned by force of arms. By destroying the states' right to secession, Abraham Lincoln opened the door to the kind of unconstrained, despotic, arrogant government we have today, something the framers of the Constitution could not have possibly imagined.

States should again challenge Washington's unconstitutional acts through nullification. But you tell me where we can find leaders with the love, courage and respect for our Constitution like Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and John C. Calhoun.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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The American Civil War
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2005, 10:44:59 AM »
H.K. Edgerton former president of the Asheville NAACP



"If you want to ask me about my ancestral roots, I am a Confederate-American," Mr. Edgerton said. "I was born colored, negro, then one day somebody decided to make me African-American. Nobody asked me about that. Africa didn't want me then, and she certainly doesn't want me now."

"The attack on the Confederacy doesn't get the attention it deserves. These blacks today have no idea what took place back then. (Blacks) earned a place of dignity in that war. If it wasn't for Africans that war would have lasted four days, not four years. We made all of the implements of war, we fought, we participated -- not one slave insurrection happened during that period of time. They did not have whips and guns forcing them to be there. God and his infinite wisdom brought these people here. He brought about a love between master and slave that has never happened before. If you search this empirically then you will know the only one who cared about the African was the man in the south. But we don't want to face that."

Edgerton considers his crusade a “fight for civil rights” and says, “I’ve
fought for civil rights all my life and it doesn’t get any worse than this.
It’s high time to have education for black and white folks about Southern
history.”

Edgerton’s knowledge of the Civil War era differs greatly from what the usual
textbooks, which he calls northern propaganda, teach.

Edgerton instructs that secession was an act provided for in the U.S.
Constitution. No state had ever agreed to enter into a perpetual Union when
it ratified the Constitution, and the South was not the first to discuss the idea.
According to Edgerton, the New England states talked about secession during
the War of 1812, and in 1814 the New England Federalists even held a secession
convention in Connecticut.
 
Here are a few other insights Edgerton presented about the Civil War:

“Blacks fought for the South.”

“Lincoln fought the South to keep all the Southern tax money.”
"And as for President Lincoln, our American hero, who signed the Emancipation Proclamation. In march of 1861 Abraham Lincoln called all those black leaders in his office and he told them -- Even if I set you free you'll be inferior. You need to get out of the country because I will colonize you. Lincoln proposed the 13th Amendment, being the only President ever to do so. That amendment said Congress would never have the power to interrupt an institution of state. He told the southerners they could keep the slaves if they paid the North a 42% tariff. The South agreed to a 10% tariff but not 42%. So, who I am supposed to blame the institution of slavery on?


“Southern generals have been made out to be traitors when they were very
honorable men.”

“Blacks could certainly walk around the south, but not around Lincoln’s
Illinois.”

“America will never ever be great until the truth (about the Civil War) is
told.”

“The only thing Lincoln did was to pit black and white against each other”

"The Constitution is what started the Civil War - taxes and states’ rights -
not slavery.”

“Many blacks were free and they even owned slaves.” (This was documented in
an Asheville Tribune article about the 1800s Sulfur Spring Resort in West
Asheville.)

“Most white folks didn’t even own slaves.”
“The first legalized slave was owned by a black man.”

According to Edgerton, the greatest Union desertion rates occurred just after
Lincoln announced his Emancipation Proclamation. Edgerton asserted, “Union
Soldiers said they didn’t get into to this war to save the ******s.”

He believes the United States did a great disservice to the South after the
war. Edgerton points out, “We (the United States) rebuilt Germany and Japan
(after World War II), but we never rebuilt the south land. We need a
Marshall plan for the South and we need it now.” “If you want to understand

today’s race problems, you have to understand what went on during the
‘reconstruction.’  Anyone who knows nothing of that era is simply ignorant.”
Edgerton has his own ideas about reparations too.

“The idea of reparations (for slavery) is a joke. It’s a way to drive a
wedge between blacks and whites. The only hope they (the blacks) have is to
hold their white southern brothers’ hand and join in calling for Southern
reparations,” explains Edgerton.
“My ultimate goal is to seek reparations for all Southerners.” Edgerton is not
just talking about money either, but the South’s history that Edgerton says
has been rewritten by the victors - the North.

Edgerton talked about some of his exploits and told of when he was standing
on a bridge in Alabama with his Confederate Flag. He said a black woman
stopped, jumped out of a car, hugged his neck and told him that she could
now bring her grandfather’s uniform down out of the attic. It was a
Confederate uniform.

He notes that when his zeal was put to work in the black community, he was
called “a radical, loose cannon,” yet when he turned his attention to
defending his Southern heritage he is called a “lackey and Uncle Tom.”
“It’s ridiculous that a Nazi, Ku Klux Klan skinhead would use the Cross of
St. Andrew to try and intimidate anyone. That’s my flag,” states Edgerton.

Edgerton says that in the Southern heritage circles he’s been affiliated
with, “I’ve not run into one person who believes slavery was a good thing.”
When it comes to defending Southern Hertiage, Edgerton admits “Southerners
always will try to accommodate people because we are kind-hearted, but we’ve
backed up too far,” he says.

Edgerton, who says he’s been made a member of the “White Trash Society,”
says with a laugh, “It’s hard to be a white man 'cause we’re guilty of
everything bad that happened.”
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2005, 12:31:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
Ok, then...it's settled. 650,000 poor young boys died so that slavery for a buncha rich plantation owners ...


Actually Virginia was later than other southern "slave owning states" (as the Virginia put it) because there was a intrastate politics.

North western Virginia did not use slavery any where near the eastern part as the main industry was mining, not farming.

One reason why what is now West Virginia was pissed at the eastern part was because slaves were not taxed at the same rate as other property and they though the north western part was overtaxed as compared to the east.

Damn... there's that slavery issue again.

Virginia only came into the confederacy after Fort Sumpter was fire upon.  The ordinance of Secession was adopted in June.
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2005, 12:47:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin

Damn... there's that slavery issue again.
 


  Right along with that pesky money issue, huh?
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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2005, 12:52:08 PM »
Good post dred :aok

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2005, 03:41:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
Right along with that pesky money issue, huh?


I guess you didn't see that slavery had a special place in the Virginia property tax code...

Slavery was so intimately intertwined in the southern economy, tax code social fabric...  an overturn of slavery would cause upheaval in nearly every facet in southern life.

The reason the war started was that the south was concerned that the northern anti slavery[\b] legislators would out number the slave states in the federal congress, and that slavery would be legislated out of existance.

Ask these questions to yourself...

If Slavery did not exist in any state since 1781, why would the south open fire on Ft Sumpter?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 03:43:54 PM by Holden McGroin »
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2005, 06:05:40 PM »
Holden, that point could be argued here to the point it would make The Voss Conspiracy look like a dime book. :)
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Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2005, 07:14:01 PM »
Dred, usually I respect what you say.


But you just quoted a big pile of bull****, to put it straight.

I could go through sentence by sentence discrediting that guy, but I won't because I know I won't convince you.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2005, 09:52:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
Holden, that point could be argued here to the point it would make The Voss Conspiracy look like a dime book. :)


However anyone who disagreed with me would be wrong. :p
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Offline stantond

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« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2005, 12:25:48 AM »
Slavery existed, that is a fact.  South Carolina's explanation of their decision to suceed from the union was based on slavery, that is history.  However, much like looking at a glimpse of history, that does not tell the whole story.  The tarrif's imposed by the northern states on the south were not because of slavery.  They were economic and some might say for control.  However, to say that the civil war was caused by the southern states having slaves as the primary reason for the civil war is wrong.  Alot of states at that time period had slaves and did not suceed from the union.  

Not that the civil war reasons are some sort of logic problem, but South Carolina's reason (as written) for suceeding was drafted by lawyers.  South Carolina tried working with the 'theory of nullification' 25 years before the civil war and voted to ignore federal tariffs.  President Jackson worked to pass laws requiring State compliance with Federal laws and making any sucession of a state from the union illegal, because of South Carolina's actions.  The South Carolina economy was severly affected by Federal tariff's and their economy was in a depression.  

Not to compare South Carolina with Germany after WW1, but economic conditions provide strong motiviation.  South Carolina's initiative and later lead in 1860 was followed by other (but not all) agricultural economy states.  Slaves were property (as bizarre as that sounds today) and it was legal to own them.  Much like making a proclamation that someone should be able to own land,  South Caroling used owning slaves as the reason to suceed from the union, at least in print. After sucession from the union, South Carolina, as a sovern state,  proceeded to annex and aquire Ft. Sumter because it belonged to South Carolina and not the Federal Government.


Regards,

Malta

Offline DREDIOCK

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The American Civil War
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2005, 01:12:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Dred, usually I respect what you say.


But you just quoted a big pile of bull****, to put it straight.

I could go through sentence by sentence discrediting that guy, but I won't because I know I won't convince you.


Which one? I used the words of 3 seperate people (all black)
1 is a college historian
1 is a professor
and 1 is the former head of a chapter of the NAACP

Or did you mean Lincoln and Grant? LOL
« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 01:22:26 AM by DREDIOCK »
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Offline Sandman

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The American Civil War
« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2005, 02:30:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184

Slavery was the cause and the end of the Civil War.


Bah... there's no way the north would have risen to free the slaves. Fort Sumter was the cause.

In any case, slavery didn't really end after the south lost. Hell... how long did the Jim Crow laws last, another century?
sand

Offline Leslie

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« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2005, 03:47:54 AM »
Slavery had a lot to do with the war.  The issue was brought to the forefront by novels such as "Uncle Tom's Cabin" by Harriet Beecher Stowe.  The book was widely read and very influential in advancing the abolitionist movement.  Other "slave" novels of the day had great influence as well.  This fueled the fire, so to speak, because zealous aboloitionist  folks believed all slave owners were like Simon LaGree.

I do not believe this is true, however enough did to do something about it.  But I'm undecided whether the novel started the Civil War.  It certainly did move things along.

I think a lot of people try to judge history in today's light.  It can't be done because we don't know the way it really was, unless some of us are over 150 uears old and in great health.

Point is. the argument concerning whether southern slave owners treated their slaves badly can only be determined from the writings of the slaves themselves.  Some of these writings speak highly of the masters, and even say the masters paid them for their work.  Now this was here in Mobile before the Civil War.  Some domestic slaves chose to remain during and after Reconstruction because they were already being paid as slaves before hand.  You may find this was the case in other cities.  Mobile, being a port, was unique in that there was plenty of exposure to people from foreign lands, and perhaps folks got along or understood each other better.  Just an opinion.  Mobile was not a top priority target by Union forces mainly due to it's size.  The entire fortress of Mobile was about 100 miles in diameter (50 mile radius) and couldn't be taken by land.

It's a lot easier being a slave.  You don't have to make tough decisions being thrown into a situation of chaos, such as Reconstruction was.  The occupying Northern forces sure didn't give a damn much about Negros, and treated them poorly, more than likely formenting racism to a level never seen in the South.

How was this done?  Reconstruction was punitive in nature and one of the things the (white) Yankees did was place unqualified  Negros in all the top administrative city offices.   Let's not be pc about it for a change.  By unqualified I mean these guys didn't have a clue about administering a city.  Think for a moment the burden that would be . to just be placed in office, no vote, nothing.  Not sure if they even had a choice.  

I think most people of that era, white or black, would've thought that dictatorial and not in the best interest of the city..

  Anyway this is mostly  for Nash's benefit since he wants to know something about how the Civil War affects us today.   True Confederates don't like Yankees much, but we tolerate them.  





Les

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2005, 07:52:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
However anyone who disagreed with me would be wrong. :p

:D
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2005, 03:04:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
Bah... there's no way the north would have risen to free the slaves. Fort Sumter was the cause.

In any case, slavery didn't really end after the south lost. Hell... how long did the Jim Crow laws last, another century?


The North did not rize.

Ft Sumpter was fired upon by southern forces.  Lincoln made sure that the first shot was not fired by the Union.

The South fired on Sumpter beacuse it was a Union fort, and they wanted the Union out of SC and SC out of the union.  They wanted the Union out because as stated in the SC declaration, the newly elected president Lincoln was "hostile to slavery" and stated himself in his house divided speech that our country could not survive half slave and half free.  

So Ft Sumpter was the spark, but the reason Ft Sumpter was fired upon was the southern fear that slavery would be abolished by the federal government.

The states rights and economic arguments stem from the fear that slavery would be abolished by the federal government.
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