Author Topic: The American Civil War  (Read 2538 times)

Offline Jackal1

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The American Civil War
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2005, 10:21:20 AM »
The comparison of the Nazi symbol and the Stars and Bars is gettin into the twilight zone.
  The Stars and Bars are a big part of our country`ss heritage. The making, history and a very big part of the foundation itself. It is a tribute to the 13. The 13 states still exists and so do the decendants of those from that time in history.
  The south is still a very proud and unique part of the U.S.
  The symbol of the Nazis is a part of another country. In the U.S. the Nazi flag represents an enemy of the WORLD that was fought and defeated.
  There is no American pride represented with the Nazi symbol.
Apples/oranges.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2005, 10:23:25 AM »
One last link and quote for you rpm...

Texas Ordinance of Secession

The third paragraph says:

Quote
Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated States to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquillity and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?


Texas only mentions 'slave', 'slave holding states', or 'slavery' 21 times.

It does mention the federal govt stomping on states rights at least once, it says,

Quote
The controlling majority of the Federal Government, under various pretenses and disguises, has so administered the same as to exclude the citizens of the Southern States, unless under odious and unconstitutional restrictions, from all the immense territory owned in common by all the States on the Pacific Ocean, for the avowed purpose of acquiring sufficient power in the common government to use it as a means of destroying the institutions of Texas and her sister slave-holding States.
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Offline Samiam

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« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2005, 10:44:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
The comparison of the Nazi symbol and the Stars and Bars is gettin into the twilight zone.
  The Stars and Bars are a big part of our country`ss heritage. The making, history and a very big part of the foundation itself. It is a tribute to the 13. The 13 states still exists and so do the decendants of those from that time in history.
  The south is still a very proud and unique part of the U.S.
  The symbol of the Nazis is a part of another country. In the U.S. the Nazi flag represents an enemy of the WORLD that was fought and defeated.
  There is no American pride represented with the Nazi symbol.
Apples/oranges.


So then it's OK if Germans wish to fly the Nazi flag because the Nazi regime is part of their heritage and they should be proud of that heritage and since the Reichstag still exists in Berlin it should sport the flag in support of the brave soldiers that fought to preserve the Fatherland?

German outlawing the swastika violates our notion of free speech, but I don't think any german should consider WWII - or at least the symbolism of the Nazi flag - a proud part of their heritage.

The south is certainly a unique and treasured part of the country, but taking pride in such a horrible war (on both sides) is creepy.

Again, can you at least understand how honoring the main symbol of south, who's motivations for seceding were primarily driven by the desire to preserve slavery, is offensive to some?

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2005, 10:46:45 AM »
Quote
big part of our country`ss heritage


Freudian?

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2005, 10:59:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It is probably less of a division that the Quebequios



Heehee, that sounds like Quebeckeeos.

Quebecois.  ;)

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2005, 12:05:27 PM »
Just to add to Holden's post above, something of note about the Texas secession.  While Texas was the last slave state to join the Confederacy before the fall of Ft. Sumter, they were the only one of the original members to have a full public referendum on the issue.  The rest were voted in by the legislatures.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2005, 02:11:20 PM »
chairboy... that is a fair question and I will say that most of the soldiers that fought for Germany in WWII were brave, skilled and honorable...  they have nothing to be ashamed of...

you asked me about nazi's tho and nazi flags.   Not that many german soldiers belonged to the nazi party... in fact... when questioned at the end of the war about being nazi.... it seems that only a dozen or so were nazi's... I am being facitious but... the reality was that most felt they were fighting under a german flag rather than a nazi one fairly early in the game.

The nazi flag does not represent anything of value in my opinion but I see no reason that it can't be used as anyone pleases.

In the north and south conflict... attrocities were done by both sides but the extreme bravery of the soldiers was admirable.

lazs

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2005, 05:07:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Samiam
So then it's OK if Germans wish to fly the Nazi flag because the Nazi regime is part of their heritage and they should be proud of that heritage and since the Reichstag still exists in Berlin it should sport the flag in support of the brave soldiers that fought to preserve the Fatherland?
 


  Since you directed that to me , I`m assuming you you are asking my personal opinion.
  My answer would have to be that would be up to the individual countries. I seriously doubt that many people in Germany wish to fly the Nazi flag.
  What I am saying is that the Nazi flag, when flown in my country, is only a representation of a foreign enemy of the world that was fought and defeated. It has nothing to do with our heritage and making as a country. It represents no states and bears no history as far as the making of our country goes.
  To simplify, I could care less if it is flown in other countries. That`s their problem, not ours.

Quote
German outlawing the swastika violates our notion of free speech, but I don't think any german should consider WWII - or at least the symbolism of the Nazi flag - a proud part of their heritage.


  I don`t believe Germany is bound by our laws and or opinions. Don`t really know how you relate this to the subject.

Quote
The south is certainly a unique and treasured part of the country, but taking pride in such a horrible war (on both sides) is creepy.


  Who is asking or suggesting that pride be taken in the civil war?
 

Quote
Again, can you at least understand how honoring the main symbol of south, who's motivations for seceding were primarily driven by the desire to preserve slavery, is offensive to some? [/B]
[/QUOTE]

  The Stars and Bars represent the 13 states. They still exist. We`re still here and we`re still proud. If "the main symbol of the south" ,as you worded it, offends someone then I would have to say they either still have a problem and hold prejudices against the south or they are just plain ignorant.
  If someone has an individual problem with me flying the Stars and Bars then it`s their problem, not mine. I can`t be held responsible for the ignorance and misunderstanding of others.
  The comparison that is trying to be made is uncomparable in that it does not relate in any form or fashion.

  Am I to take it, you Suh are a Yankeeee? :)
  Before anyone`s BVDs gets in a wad.....that`s a l`il southern humor.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2005, 05:17:18 PM by Jackal1 »
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Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2005, 11:30:30 PM »
Quote
Slavery was an issue, but it was not the main reason. It was economic.


Slavery was the main issue.  Convincing yourself otherwise is just trying to get too scholarly on the issue.

Economics, State's Rights, yadda yadda all point DIRECTLY back to slavery.


Slavery was the cause and the end of the Civil War.
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Offline bj229r

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« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2005, 04:04:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Think the people of South Carolina knew that their agrarian economy was based on slavery?

Next time somebody says Iraq was a war for oil I think I will paraphrase your last post, and say it was only a side issue, the issue was the economy.


Ok, then...it's settled. 650,000 poor young boys died so that slavery for a buncha rich plantation owners  might remain legal, because we KNOW how much the northerners loved and revered the African American sector of our population.

(Might'n it have a LITTLE bit to do with the south's voting minority in the House, which limited with whom they might do trade?)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 04:07:46 AM by bj229r »
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2005, 08:55:34 AM »
yep... but it makes for a great martin luther king day parade.

lazs

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2005, 09:28:47 AM »
"A Black Confederate Defends Dixie

Constitution/Conservatism Editorial
Source: Dixie Daily News
Published: 7/19/01 Author: Bob Harrison
Posted on 07/19/2001 13:31:38 PDT by shuckmaster
To Mike Ritter of the Arizona Tribune

Being a full-time husband and father of three wonderful little Rebels, I have little time for such squabbles, but this one bears a strong need for attention. Before I go into this issue at length let me explain a few things about myself.

MY name is Robert Harrison, and I am a professional historian and Research Librarian at SC State University, one of the oldest Historically Black Colleges in the country. Secondly, I am the descendant of TWO Virginia slave families so I am more than knowledgeable about the plight of slaves, NORTHERN as well as Southern. Firstly your claim that NO ONE is willing to show understanding towards the "feelings" blacks have towards the Battle Flag, is unfounded and completely false. Many Southerners of all walks of life have been VERY vocal about the fact that slavery was dark event in the history of our country. However, the "official facts" we are spoon fed through our so-called "official texts" and the media do not even begin to cover the WHOLE TRUTH on the institution of American Slavery.

There is VERY little told of black slave owners, and almost NOTHING regarding Northern slaveholders and their refusal to allow Thomas Jefferson to write into the declaration the freeing of the slaves. It was NORTHERN slaveholders that blocked this inclusion. I might also include that while there were SEVERAL black slave owners, most of them were WOMEN. I am sure you have heard of the phrase "putting your bellybutton back on the block." Well, where that comes from is the female slave owners. Quite often, either through loyal service or through payment they would earn their freedom and begin buy the freedom of their family members. These women, by law at the time, owned their husbands. If they caught their husbands cheating with another slave they "put his bellybutton back on the sale block." Personally I am very grateful for the courts today.

Granted modern hate groups such as the KKK and Aryan Nations have done great damage to dishonor and mislead others on the REAL meanings of these proud symbols. However, no one understands that plight more than we do. MANY Southerners, black and white, from such organizations as the Sons of Confederate Veterans, the League of the South, and the Southern Party, of which I am a member and staff writer have gone toe-to-toe with these same hate groups, the media which you are a part of is fearful of portraying the truth to the people of the South and the rest of the country.

A fine example of this is the fact that I and several other fine Southerners went to a Klan rally to protest the Klan and their misuse of our symbols and heritage. Folks like the Jerry Baxley drove HOURS OVERNIGHT to be there to join me in this fight. When we got there, the NAACP crowd and the Klan were yelling at each other like children til they saw me, in full uniform. IT was the NAACP, not the Klan that showed violence towards our presence. There is another example in Florida where SCV members stood toe-to-toe with the Klan in pouring down rain on this very issue. I politefully suggest that before you make such outrageous claims to first research it first.

As for how blacks feel about the physical presence of the flag and other symbols of CSA heritage, you are gravely mistaken. It is true that many blacks, who have been heavily influenced by the propaganda and money-focused agenda of the NAACP have been taught to believe that everyone flying a battle flag is the enemy and that White Southerners who choose to show pride in their heritage are evil hate-mongers. However, a vastly growing number blacks are beginning to look for themselves and sit down at the table of brotherhood with the white sisters and brothers and learning to understand that not only why these fine white folks love the CSA, but the FACT that the beloved Battle Flag also represents a long hidden and misused part of their own history; that of the Black Confederate.

Oddly enough MANY blacks already know of and EMBRACE this part of their history and vocally fight for it with unmitigated pride. There is Silas Chandler, who went to war with his childhood friend Andrew Chandler who showed great bravery and loyalty by helping save Andrew's leg from amputation. Silas's living descendant Bobbie Chandler, is a close personal friend of Major Michael Kelley, and is publicly HONORED by his ancestor's service to the CSA.

There is Nelson Winbush, whose ancestor Private Louis Nelson rode with General Nathan Bedford Forrest, whose name I am sure you recognize, from beginning to end of the war. Forrest by the way, freed ALL of his slaves BEFORE the war. US commanders such as Grant and Sherman didn't free their slaves until passage of the 13th amendment to our constitution 6 months AFTER the war ended. Even then these so-called "newly freed men" weren't recognized as full citizens til passage of the 14th amendment, which was passed 3 YEARS AFTER the war ended. SC State senator Robert Ford recently spoke on behalf of the flag saying it was not the flag that is the problem, but the black hearts of those who use it for bad purposes. The Reverend Charles Greene, Former Roanoke, VA chapter president of the NAACP who is now an associate member of the VA SCV division. "

Continued....
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2005, 09:29:23 AM »
"Speaking as an African American historian and descendant of the slaves, and as my mother tells me, descendant of Black Confederates, this whole focus on slavery, reparations and white guilt is wrong and highly insulting. People of honor, white, black or whatever, do not judge anyone by the history of their families but by the content of their character. If the black community is to grow it must do three things.

Firstly it MUST find REAL men and women to be leaders and not a bunch of money and glory seeking perverts and adulterers.

Secondly it must lose the co-dependency where the Federal government and the Democratic Party in particular are concerned. We as a people need to realize that the reason those slaves and "free" blacks survived as well as they did was because they were family centered, SELF- dependent people who worked and earned everything they had and didn't bother waiting around for the so-called Negro loving unionists to bring them "Freedom."

Third and finally, if blacks are so gung-ho about remembering their history then this MUST include that of the Black CONFEDERATE. A growing number of blacks are realizing this and are beginning to embrace this proud ancestry and to open their minds and hearts to the fact that the Battle Flag does NOT necessarily equal Slavery, and racism. If that were the case then the Christian cross used for cross burnings, and Old Glory itself would have to be destroyed first. It was the US flag that slaves saw when they were shipped to America and NOT the Battle Flag. It was Northern money that financed the slave trade, with the FULL BLESSING of the Federal government that sold the slaves in America in the first place. Having written a thesis on the Ku Klux Klan, with information gathered from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith, the KKK constitution clearly states that it is the US FLAG and Christian flag; NOT the Battle flag that is to be present at any and ALL Klan functions.

The point here is if this country disbands the use of any and ALL symbols that are even remotely tied to slavery, we would have no symbols whatsoever. Slavery and racism were equally present in the North as well as the South; perhaps more so in the North since most Southerners were too poor to buy basic food stuffs and most of the money, including Southern money was stuffed away into Northern banks and business at the outset of war...How convenient!

Many ethnicities suffered greatly at the hands of this "Freedom Loving" culture and government we have. The Native Americans, of which I have Cherokee ancestry for instance got the shaft big time. May I call your attention to all of those dams that the Tennessee Valley Authority built. Did you know and realize that they are built on top of the burial ground of the Cherokee people? I live not far from the Trail Of Tears where who families were dying of starvation and other horrible atrocities. How about the Irish who were greeted with this same discrimination and signs reading "Irish and Dogs not welcome" or "Irish need not apply."

It is time to stop the guilt trips and learn form our past instead of taking bits and pieces of it and using it to get money or to sell newspapers. BY the way most blacks really don't bother worrying about the flag since we as a people have much more pressing issues to deal with that plague our families like locusts; things like teen pregnancy, AIDS, drug abuse, domestic violence and deadbeat fathers.

As far as "official" state symbols and flags go, why can you not understand that the people of MS including a LARGE number of blacks voted to keep the MS state flag as it is. Why can YOU not allow the will of the people to put the issue to rest? Why do you think the NAACP fought so hard to keep the issue form coming to a referendum vote in SC and GA? Quite simply the people of SC and GA would have done the same thing as the people of MS. They would have voted to keep the flags as is, and it would have been a multicultural gathering of the citizens to keep it there as well. The point HERE is even the will of the people is being belittled because a handful of power mongers aren't being allowed to push their agenda of cultural genocide further down the throats of the Southern people.

Let me say now that your concern is one that obviously comes form your heart out of genuine concern for the feelings of others. However, pushing aside the bad parts of history doesn't make it go away. History is still history good and bad whether folks like it or not. When blacks embrace their WHOLE history and sit down to discussion with the white brothers and sisters, then everyone will be a lot better off!

Respectfully Yours,

Robert Harrison, Research Librarian-SC State University 2nd Sergeant, 37th Texas Cavalry, Company B, CSA "
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Offline TequilaChaser

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« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2005, 09:44:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seeker
See Rule #5


__________________
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Last edited by Skuzzy on 08-26-2005 at 01:05 PM


If Seeker was flame baiting, trolling, offending other members, I am Damn sure he did not do it intentionally and am personally upset to see a Friend/squadmate quit the game over the selecticism of who gets PNG, whose threads get edited and who brown noses the ones with power.

If you gonna lock someone out on the message boards, at least have the common courtesy to send them an email explaining why they have been banned/locked out of their BBS account.

This leaves a bad taste in my mouth, specially after all the other BS I see on these very same boards day in and day out.


1 ask a uestion on how something that happened many many moons ago still affects people to day in regards to one country, an outsider responds , prob not knowing he was actually flamebaiting or trolling because he is across the big pond in another country. Not making any excuse here, just think it was a matter of misunderstanding.

anyhow, looks like the Damned just lost another squad member, HTC just lost another longtime account holder / AH Community Member

  Seeker



TC
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2005, 09:46:54 AM »
"The sole object of this war is to restore the Union. Should I become convinced it has any other object, or that the Government designs it soldiers to execute the wishes of the Abolitionists,I pledge to you my honor as a man and a soldier I would resign my commision and carry my sword to the other side"
-union general Ulysses S Grant in a letter to the Chicago Tribune 1862

"My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it"-Abraham Lincoln. in a letter to Horace Greeley,editor of the New York Tribune on Aug 22 1862
« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 09:50:55 AM by DREDIOCK »
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty