Author Topic: FSO: Operation Husky - Frame 1 Score  (Read 1940 times)

Offline FiLtH

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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2005, 11:21:46 PM »
Once our 87s hit the port we all dropped like flies from the 38s. I remember hearing.."Im down"..Im dead".."Down".."Im hit..argh down" all in a very short time span.

~AoM~

Offline damnname

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« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2005, 02:32:30 AM »
Make this easy

Second life has to leave the same field!!  Still can be plane of choice but leaves out the defend aspect!

Nice run BBQ I'll be lookin for you and your boys next run!!

Offline doobs

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« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2005, 09:06:33 AM »
You know after looking at logs seems to me the stukas augered in. the shills  went down around 23:39, JG26 most around 23:29
and the VMF around 23:34.  with alot of crashes, shot down by unknown enemy(which means crash) and shot down by with (crashed) next to it. and all reupping within a minute of each other in 109's.

Seems pretty gamey to me if this is the case then Second lives need to be ELIMINATED.

And to launch stukas from one base, all seemingly go down at same times and reup in 109's at field that soon will be under attack is Bull. :mad:

This has to be addressed


The only justice is we made it ther and back with minimal losses
thanks to the 327th for the outstanding escort.
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Offline ghostdancer

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« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2005, 09:33:50 AM »
No they did not auger in .. crash on purpose. Here are the raw logs:


8/26/2005 23:26:56   -   BigR   -   End Flight   -   Killed   -      -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:30:05   -   GhstDncr   -   End Flight   -   Crashed   -   KaK3MAW   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:30:16   -   MGD   -   End Flight   -   Killed   -   KaK3MAW   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:30:45   -   ramesis   -   End Flight   -   Killed   -   JRCCrow   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:31:20   -   Syzygy   -   End Flight   -   Crashed   -   SoloMAW   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:31:39   -   SMUZ   -   End Flight   -   Killed   -   JRCCrow   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:32:15   -   MAG1C   -   End Flight   -   Killed   -   SoloMAW   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:33:10   -   matelot   -   End Flight   -   Killed   -      -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:33:16   -   TahGut   -   End Flight   -   Crashed   -   Ramon   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:33:52   -   JSO   -   End Flight   -   Killed   -      -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:33:54   -   WiNgMaN9   -   End Flight   -   Killed   -      -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:33:55   -   DaPup   -   End Flight   -   Killed   -      -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:34:15   -   50cals   -   End Flight   -   Crashed   -      -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:34:29   -   CptHowdy   -   End Flight   -   Crashed   -   SoloMAW   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:34:39   -   TyrNM   -   End Flight   -   Crashed   -   SoloMAW   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:35:07   -   iKo   -   End Flight   -   Killed   -   JRCCrow   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:35:38   -   WEZMAN   -   End Flight   -   Crashed   -   Ramon   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:35:41   -   Iceberg9   -   End Flight   -   Crashed   -   KaK3MAW   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:35:48   -   TopHat   -   End Flight   -   Killed   -   KaK3MAW   -   Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:35:55   -   FiLtH   -   End Flight   -   Crashed   -   KaK3MAW   -   Nightmares VMF-1


You will note that 7 Nightmares died from 23:34 to 23:35.  Checking the kill logs (the information above is from the End Flight logs) CptHowdy and Iceberg were maneuver kills. The others,  TyrNM, iKo, Wezman, TopHat, and Filth were granted as kill credits. Meaning they actually were shot up by the allied pilots getting credit for their kills.

The battle was on the deck and as you know planes blowing up are not the norm in AH2. Basically what happened with these 5 pilots is they got shot up and lossed a wing, tail, etc. and then plowed into the ground .. a crash. However, if they just crashed on purpose it would have only generated a maneuver kill not a kill credit.

So out of the 7 there at the end 5 were shot down.

At the beginning of the battle .. my flight got jumped to the south. I had a wing blown clean off and spun into the ground. End Flight log registers it as a crash, Kak3MAW got the kill credit and did shoot me down (I just didn't blow up).

As for the rest .. BigR, Matelot, Wingman9, and DaPup were taken out by AAA fire, End Flight registers a kill but does not give anyone a credit, if they crashed it would have registered as a crash. Only true crash was 50cals.

I would also advise you talk to the MAW who were engaged with the JU87s at the time and see if they think that surviving Stukas were not evading, scrafing, etc.  .. but all just up and augered on purpose.
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Offline ghostdancer

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« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2005, 10:14:31 AM »
I would also suggest you actually fly Stukas in close formation and see what happens when you get jumped on the deck by P38s and other allied fighters. It doesn't take very long at all to get slaughtered.

You will also note that of all the JU87 attacks only P109 could be deemed successful (20 JU87s in three groups heading in across a 25 mile front), the other attacks were not successful.

The Axis CiC sent in 3 squads to hit the allied targets in JU87s NOE .. Nightmares, Uknighted JG26, and Shillelagh. There whole purpose was the following, quoted from the actual orders:

    The idea here is to send a low wave of slow bombers to draw down the high cap usually associated with the patrol. This will ensure that our higher alt bombers get past and get us the victory. Nighmares and Uknighted will have plenty of time to become lamb chops and up at A44 to defend what should be a large bomber force going to destroy a major portion of the intended targets. (Yellow on the Map).
    [/list]

    Basically the Axis CiC gambled on that you guys would send in the slower B24Js to hit Sardinia. So he was hoping that the JU87s would die hitting their targets and then have the time to up at the Sardinia bases and get to alt to intercept the incoming B24s. The Axis CiC left the Sardinia bases completely open.

    I know the B24Js carry a heavier bomb load but the B26Bs carry 4000 lbs so 12,000 lbs total for a formation. If the Allied CiC had used those instead of the B24s it is possible that you guys could have hit Sardinia before the JU87s could have respawned in fighters and taken off and gotten to alt to intercept.

    Nightmares took off at 23:38 in 109G2s. The initial B24s bombed A3 at 23:54; 16 minute window for the 109G2s (Fields opened around 23:12 and first B24 took off at 23:13)

    So basically the Axis CiC guess correctly that B24s would be used
    and that the JU87s would die before the allieds got to Sardinia.

    The allied commander put your squad, the Fate, and the C-Hawks in B24s which was 40 pilots or 120 B24s. I know the JG44 and Chawks hit Sardinia (not sure what Fate targetted) so that is 32 Pilots or 96 B24s hitting the island.

    If 8 less B24s had been shot down the frame would have been a tie. If more escorts had been assigned (only 15 from the 327th) .. quite proably more B24Js would have survived.

    Overall the allied strike on Sardinia used 47 pilots (out of 95 flying) and fielded 111 planes. Sardinia was defended only by Nightmares and Uknighted .. 28 planes .. using their second lives to up there. So 96 B24s and 15 P38s versus 28 (21 109G2s and I think UKnighted were in 109G6s).

    Meanwhile only 16 Spits and 4 Mossies upped over at Malta. Only A4 was attacked and one gun destroyed. Nothing was destroyed at V5.

    Each CiC chose there battle plans. The Allies threw close to 49.5% of their pilots at Sardinia (pilots not planes .. so not counting the extra B24s in formation). Meanwhile they threw just 4 Mossies at A4 and V5 (no idea of escort strength but 4 Mossies can not take out a Vehicle or an airbase).

    Each side decided on their priorities and took gambles. The allies gambled that taking out Sardinia targets and western sicilian would make up for a very, very weak attack on the eastern sicilian.

    The Axis gambled by leaving Sardinia undefended and hoped that the second lifers would be killed in time to up and defend the island .. knowing that JU87s are basically dead if intercepted.

    The net result was that both gambles paid off and the battle was fought to basically a tie. In hindsight if the Allied CiC had taken say 10 of your pilots and put them into escorts that would have given 25 escorts and still would have had 22 B24 pilots or 66 B24s. A3 was destroyed by the CHawks who also did around 30-40% damage to the city. The city was creamed by you guys and A44 was destroyed but by your lead elements and possibly mid elements. I know there was still B24s coming and dropping after most things were dead.

    So hindsight suggests that too many B24s were tasked to hit the targets and that more escorts could have prevented the LW fighters from bagging 48.
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    Offline RSLQK186

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    « Reply #20 on: August 28, 2005, 10:24:41 AM »
    Though I think that the 2nd life rule should be narrowed a bit I did not see any indication that the Shills augered. We spotted them low outside the radar circle and they almost  got  ord on target minus various parts.They tried real hard. It was our intention to disable and conserve ammo. We knew the 88s w/escorts were not far behind and rearming would cost us. We grabed all the alt we could but did not have time to spead for searching. They were on HQ before we could get to them. But the 7 of us(commitment level error had CiC thinking there would be more) did manage to save 45% of the attack/deffence points or 25% overall. And with a 3 to 1 for AC kill points and several 88s damaged to hamper a second strike I'd say we had a good frame. I'm saddend that our efforts were negeted by problems elsewere.  I fear discos far more than an enemy that can find an advantage within the rules. Rules can be altered if an unfare advantage is found. I do think the choices for second life should be narrowed some.
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    Offline ghostdancer

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    « Reply #21 on: August 28, 2005, 10:26:36 AM »
    Now I would ask people to be a bit more "calm" when commenting on things. Do you research and present your logic, questions or case.

    Making accusations that multiple squads were ordered to auger on command to interecept an incoming attack is a serious accusation.

    I have seen no evidence yet that any of the JU87 squads "augered on command."

    Next, yes the plan was for the JU87s to draw the defenders low and keep them their and use up their ammo so that JU88 could come in on high and hit the targets unopposed.

    And yes, after dying they were to up and defend areas in Sardinia. But once again no, they did not die and then rush to Sardinia to intercept an attack.

    They upped at Sardinia and 16 minutes later an attack came in (the Chawks with out escort). This was followed by the JG44 attack with escorts at 0:09 or 15 minutes after that. So clearly JU87s did not die on command to intercept a discovered inbound attack.

    They died fighting to get there targets, which they did not expect to hit which is why JU88s were tasked in following up attacks, and they then upped to defend targets with no indication of where the enemy was coming from.

    Under the rules this was valid. You can call it gamey that is your opinion. It also could be called gamey by some that only 4 Mossies were tasked to hit a Vehicle base and airfield. But once again this is acceptable under the rules that an attack must be made at least in squad strength (4-6 is the lowest squad committment level number).
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    Offline Hornet33

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    « Reply #22 on: August 28, 2005, 10:26:56 AM »
    How about we just eliminate the whole controversy invovled here by making it 1 plane/1 pilot/1 life across the board. Make the kill points for planes like the Stuka and SBD low and the attack points high to offset the capabilities, or lack there of, of those types of planes.

    The AXIS tactics the other night were very gamey. You guys used a loop hole in the rules to get away with it. OK fine. It's in the rules and we'll have to live with it, but it doesn't make it right.

    Ghostdancer, you said in an earlier post that the AXIS CO sent the 3 squads with stukas in low and un escorted in the hopes that they would be slaughtered, so they could then re up at A44 and defend in 109's. It was your guy's plan, you followed it, and it worked, but at what cost? People are looking at this thinking OK they have stukas, but what are they really going to be flying when I get to my target? Oh and how are you guys going to feel when the tables are turned on you with this tactic?

    Lets get rid of the 2nd life. You fly what you get, and if you die your out. If your flying stukas or SBD's, you better make your plans accordingly so you can survive.

    Alright I've had my say and I'm done:(
    AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

    Offline ghostdancer

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    « Reply #23 on: August 28, 2005, 10:31:51 AM »
    I am considering the suggestion of 2nd life pilots must up from the same base they originally upped from.

    However, I have to think about this in some depth because there are some problems with it. Mainly if they up from a base that is a target and the Fighter or Bomber hangars are destroyed what should be done?

    I can't not have them get their second life. So do we restore a FH or BH so they can up and then destroy it as a CM. Or do we let them up from the next closest field.

    If CVs are involved and the CV is killed what then?

    So there are several issues I need to think about and discuss with other CMs.
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    Offline ghostdancer

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    « Reply #24 on: August 28, 2005, 10:34:50 AM »
    Oh, and just for reference even if that rule was in place in frame 1. The JU87s upped from A114 and A4. Instead of defending Sardinia (upping at A44 and A3) they could have upped again from A114 and A4 and defended sicily (flown from those bases and defended the sicily areas). While the squads tasked with defending Sicily would have been switched to defending Sardinia.

    Same gamble just different island left undefended initially.
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    Offline ghostdancer

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    « Reply #25 on: August 28, 2005, 10:46:53 AM »
    I have personally flown in FSO since 2001. The tables have been turned on me many times. This is not the first case of a side which has had planes with pilots that have 2 lives upping those planes as bait to bring defenders down.

    The main goal was to bring the defenders down and exhaust their ammo. The JU87s were tasked with hitting the targets but nobody expected that to happen since the JU87 is dead meet when discovered by fighters.

    It was then hoped that the actions would resolved themselves in time for the JU87 pilots to up again and help with defense.

    The strategy could have proven very disasterous.

    I am not defending this from a bias of being on the LW side. Although I did defend the accusations levelled at me and my squad of not fighting to the death but augering on command.

    I will have no problem with the Allies doing the same sort of thing when they have SBDs with second lives.

    Sending in the SBDs and then having them up to defend the CVs or up to defend Malta, etc.

    As for getting rid of 2nd lives for some pilots. Not going to happen. There are some planes that stand no chance of survival when engaged by fighters of the opposing side.

    - Val
    - Kate
    - Ju87
    - SBD (depending on plane set)
    - IL2 (dependign on plane set)

    In 2001 and 2002 we had 1 life for all planes but Daddog and others instituted 2nd lives for certain planes (and GVs) because of the complaints and outcries of squads over it.  When you fly for 30 minutes only to get slaughtered with no real chance at all of defending yourself or killing an enemy plane .. many squads found it frustrating (to put it mildly) and kill their interest in wanting to participate in the event. Some squads accepted it took it on the nose as to be team players many did not.

    That is why it change to having certain planes, if used, giving a pilot a second life. It is not really about the points for killing the planes .. it was based on the factor of fun. It is not fun for many to be assigned to planes that they know they are dead, its just of matter of when they get engaged.
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    Offline RSLQK186

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    « Reply #26 on: August 28, 2005, 10:52:10 AM »
    I'm for both sides getting an infearior plane w/2nd life. I've had some good times in SBDs and B5Ns. And it obviously shakes thangs up a bit.:)
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    Offline Dace

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    « Reply #27 on: August 28, 2005, 10:56:59 AM »
    Quote
    Originally posted by Hornet33
    Lets get rid of the 2nd life. You fly what you get, and if you die your out. If your flying stukas or SBD's, you better make your plans accordingly so you can survive.

    Alright I've had my say and I'm done:(


    I'll bet if u were in a Stuka (with the 1 life rule),your attitude would change a bit.

    I also think u need to back off a lil' on your comments. Your throwin around accusations awfully loose. My squad wasnt even in Stukas last night, but I can tell u I'm offended for the squads that were. I know none of them were orderd to auger in order to defend.

    Offline Hornet33

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    « Reply #28 on: August 28, 2005, 11:20:42 AM »
    Quote
    Originally posted by Dace
    I'll bet if u were in a Stuka (with the 1 life rule),your attitude would change a bit.

    I also think u need to back off a lil' on your comments. Your throwin around accusations awfully loose. My squad wasnt even in Stukas last night, but I can tell u I'm offended for the squads that were. I know none of them were orderd to auger in order to defend.


    I have flown stukas and it does suck when you get jumped. Not aurguing there.

    I am not throwing accusations out either. I said in my first post that looking at the logs it gave the "impression" that flights were orderd to auger. I have been told by reliable sorces that this did NOT happen and I am taking their word for it. I have also givin my apollogy to those that might have been offended by my post when I suggested that this MAY have occured.

    I will not flat out accuse anyone of cheating or anything unless I can prove it. I mearly asked that the situation in question be looked at. It has and my questions have been answered to my satisfaction. I may not agree with the answers on principal, but I have them and right now that is good enough for me.
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    Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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    « Reply #29 on: August 28, 2005, 12:24:13 PM »
    Perhaps the best solution is to offer the second life pilot a very limited choice of planes for the second life.

    The first life of a two life assignment is often a "no lose" throw away deal. You get a plane that is for all intents and purposes a flying coffin. If you get to the objective and drop a bomb on target, you win no matter what, whether you live or die. If you get shot down and never reach the objective, you get a new life and a new, far better plane, so you don't really lose anything, other than a plane that has a low point value.

    Perhaps a better and more fair approach would be to offer the next best attack plane for the second life to the pilots who get the flying coffin for the first life. Or a second life in the same plane.

    I agree that it is very hard to justify giving a pilot one ride in a plane he is almost certainly destined to die regardless of his skill or efforts. However, perhaps giving him one complete throw away attack plane PLUS a front line fighter is too much.

    The second life offers a major advantage in some cases if properly used, and cannot be overcome. If you have to defend against a throw away plane, you cannot use the same pilot you defend with to escort a strike all the way across the battlefield, while the two life pilot ''teleports" across the battlefield to a brand new frontline fighter when he dies, and attacks the strike force with the reduced escort.

    The two life pilot CAN be a force multiplier that is too strong, or has far more advantages than disadvantages. It isn't always, but it is sometimes.
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