Author Topic: FSO: Operation Husky - Frame 1 Score (Read 1938 times)

ghostdancer · « **Reply #45 on:** August 30, 2005, 08:24:42 AM »

Now as for the IL2 and the JU87s. I think my position has been the same on both. I believe they both deserve second lives.

I don't think the use of either actually unbalance the frame and in the case of the JU87s the Germans might actually have done better not to use them based on actually performance during the frame.

The main points that seem to be coming up is the fact that a large force can spawn say on the south front (out of Panterilla in this case), get wiped out and then act as a strategic reserve and come up on another front en masse 100s of miles away (Sardinia).

Plus, there being no real incentive for the pilots of these planes to try to survive (personally I think the pilots do try to survive .. its a rush to actually get home and land when you thought you were as a good as dead when you took off).

Easyscor · « **Reply #46 on:** August 30, 2005, 10:04:12 AM »

Good points doobs

I'm mostly responding to the call to change scoring because of one bad frame. That's usually not a good idea but I'm sure if it needs doing ghostdancer can come up with something that will work.

One of the best things about FSO is the rotating COs and that escorts are usually provided to Stuka/Il2/bomber/Jabo rides. I don't think any future CO that flew the Stuka mission in last fridays' frame will send out another Stuka squad without escorts because he's walked in those shoes and no one likes to get shot down in FSO; even if it is in a cannon fodder Stuka.

TracerX · « **Reply #47 on:** August 30, 2005, 11:38:08 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by ghostdancer

Of the question of incentive to get these planes home. I don't want to increase the value of the plane .. denying the enemy the points if they survive .. i.e. change it to value 20 or 25.

However, might think about giving a survival bonus. You get a JU87 home and landed (logs do capture lands) that side gets points for you doing so. Hopefully that would give the pilots an incentive to try to get home and to the CiC to try to plan missions where they could get home.

Just have to figure out whether to give them their full value of 15 as bonus or say something like 10.

The only reason I did not suggest a bonus to the side that has the 2nd life aircraft is because they are the advantaged side already. They are the ones throwing away the first life. Their pilots get two lives and now we want to add a bonus on top of the second life? I merely thought that a pilot that does not return his plane must "pay" for his second life by forefiting the cost of the airplane he takes up. It may end up costing him nothing because he has the potential to rejoin the fight and shoot down more enemies. Anyone returning their first life gets a bonus in effect by not having to pay this cost. The cost is a way to compensate the other side for having to shoot someone down twice. Remember we are trying to prevent abuse of the 2nd life airplanes, not the other way around.

Easyscor · « **Reply #48 on:** August 30, 2005, 12:15:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by ghostdancer
[list=1]
They must up from the base they launched from. However, some conditions must be made just in case this base (more likely a CV) is destroyed. So possibly next nearest base also if home base destroyed.

If you require the second life to up at the same field as the Stuka, aren't you putting more pressure on them to die quickly so they can reup and fly to the next battle?

TracerX · « **Reply #49 on:** August 30, 2005, 12:30:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Easyscor
If you require the second life to up at the same field as the Stuka, aren't you putting more pressure on them to die quickly so they can reup and fly to the next battle?

I agree Easyscor, as long as the first life is used correctly, I could care less where the 2nd life spawns from. The only reason we see complaints on where the second life spawns from is because the first life is not being used realisticly.

TracerX · « **Reply #50 on:** August 30, 2005, 12:54:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by doobs
and if everybody already has a prenotion that these type of planes are as good as dead. Then why would anybody try and plan a returnable flight for them. Its a failed notion before its concieved.

I think Doobs described the problem very eloquently there.

DaPup · « **Reply #51 on:** August 30, 2005, 03:39:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by TracerX
I agree Easyscor, as long as the first life is used correctly, I could care less where the 2nd life spawns from. The only reason we see complaints on where the second life spawns from is because the first life is not being used realisticly.

I disagree, what did the first have to do with the second life spawn point? It was chosen before the frame not made up as we died horrible deaths in our stukas. This whole thing is silly, this is the way it has been for BOTH sides for longer than I've been around here. Filth was right on though, I sure wouldn't waste an hour of my time to die in a stuka then log....think I'll stay in MA or make my wife happy

instead.

DaPup out

ghostdancer · « **Reply #52 on:** August 31, 2005, 03:09:59 PM »

Actually the two complaints here, at the start of the thread, were about the perception that the Stukas augered on command and then upped at field they did not spawn from to stop and attack.

They upped Panterilla and then reupped in Sardinia hundreds of miles away.

The discussion of them being used realistically or not was toward the end of the thread. Most have focused on the issues above.

And on the Eastern Front the Germans actually did use the Stukas without escorts and found out what happened when enemy fighters were not around .. Stukas died. But sometimes still had to do it because of not enough fighters to screen.

In Frame 1 case the death of the Stukas cost the Germans a bit. This is the beauty of hindsight .. we can actually see the results of plans after the battle and do some analysis.

As stated the net loss for the Stuka use was 250 points to the allies. The Stukas did very little damage to the enemy facilities and whether they actually succeeded in drawing the enemy (allied fighters) out of position or burning up their ammo is debatable. Since the JU88 attacks came in late enough to allow the defenders to rearm and get back into position.

As posted earlier in the thread if I discount the Stuka deaths and the damage they did the Germans actually scored better. Even if you then allow for the Allies planes doing better against the JU88 strikes since they did not have to tangle with Stukas (no allied planes lost to Stukas) the results seem to probably still have been the same as what happened.

So people can debate realistic or not. Remember Stuka strikes actually did happen unescorted in the Med and Eastern front. The German players basically though just learned what happens when a Stuka a strike is intercepted .. slaughter.

I am sure the next frame German commander will consider the actually results for his plan. Meaning escort the Stukas or possibly use a different plane set mix to try to achieve better battle results.

As I said the nice thing about FSO is we do have hindsight and that CiCs can experiment and learn what works and what does not. Or hwo well certain things work.

ghostdancer · « **Reply #53 on:** August 31, 2005, 03:17:37 PM »

I also disagree that the side with the 2nd life planes have an advantage. The FSO was constructed to try to balance things.

The Germans do not have to use the Stukas. The use of them is very tricky to pull off. If you use them pilots are stuck in slow planes that either need to sneak in or have heavy escorts to get through.

The 110 is actually a better plane for a sneak attack or if needing an escort.

The 2nd life is hard to actually use effectively but is best used as a strategic reserve.

However, this strategic reserve is heavily offset by the fact that the FSO allows the allies to use bomber formations. The JU88 is not in the class of the B24 or B26 in fire power or toughness. 109Gs and 190A5 and C.205s have a hard time with these bombers and at best can usually average 1 to 2 kills on a formation by most pilots.

Meaning the allies can and actually did swamp the axis defenders with bombers (again see earlier on in the thread).

If the allies did not have formations on then the Axis strategic reserve would be more of a swing factor. But even with this strategic reserve the Axis were not able to save Sardinia. They shot down a lot of B24s (48) and barely took the frame.

However, this was not a given. If the allies went with less bombers hitting sardinia (say 10 pilots) they could have a stronger escort that could have possible prevent or at least reduce the numbers of bombers lost and still had more than enough bombers in the air to level the Sardinia targets.

Once again not a bad plan by the Allied commander at all. Just part of the learning process of figuring out how much is enough and then building in a fudge factor in case you suffer several losses before being able to drop bombs.

Dux · « **Reply #54 on:** August 31, 2005, 05:37:06 PM »

Calling it a "plan" would be overly generous. When I jumped in to cover the Allied CiC, I assigned rides and targets... there was little time left to ponder the subtleties of strategy. The orders needed to get out as soon as possible.

That said, I'm pleased the frame went as well as it did. The best FSOs are the ones that are nearly ties, and that's exactly what we got last week.

Equal parts glory and death.
Like it should be.

Mystic2 · « **Reply #55 on:** September 02, 2005, 11:59:59 AM »

I really dont have a problem with the 2nd life for bombers and such, but I would like a clarification. To be eligible for the second life, do you have to successfully return to your original base, or if you are shot down does that second life comeinto play? Just a little foggy on that issue. As far as last friday nite went, I would say it was an overall good SO. Maybe a few tactical errors on both sides, but overall a good one. And I really want to thank DUX for takin over cic on such short notice.. I garuntee my next go around at cic will be better.... now that I have an idea of what im doin

ghostdancer · « **Reply #56 on:** September 02, 2005, 12:07:18 PM »

I think last friday went very well and that both you and Dux came up and executed solid battle plans. It was very well fought on both sides by the players and the CiCs.

As for tactical errors .. well those happen and only really come out when you sit back and go over the actual results of the frame. Hindsight is 20/20 and the only way to learn is to actually put together a battle plan, execute it, and then see what went well and not well based on the results.

I am always amazed on how things actual play our what the results are based on the fighting versus what was projected before the frame starts.

Don't take anything I stated previously as a criticism. It was not meant to be. It was only meant to highlight how things actually turned out versus people's perceptions.