Author Topic: FSO: Operation Husky - Frame 1 Score (Read 2438 times)

ghostdancer · « **Reply #30 on:** August 28, 2005, 12:37:35 PM »

Hornet my comment about presenting "calm" was not aimed at you. We already discussed things and the percieved augering issue.

It was in response to another person bringing up he same issue and accusations and the way it was phrased.

ghostdancer · « **Reply #31 on:** August 28, 2005, 12:41:38 PM »

Dace Hornet and I already discussed this issue. It was another person in this thread that my latest round of posts were addressing not Hornet.

Same issue although about percieved augering on command, 2nd life Stukas, etc.

ghostdancer · « **Reply #32 on:** August 28, 2005, 01:07:14 PM »

If the JU87s were not used in frame 1 .. by this I mean lets throw out all the damage they did to ground targets and also any kills on them. And instead just count what they did in the defense of Sicily and Sardinia this is what the frame might have looked like.

AXIS
1450 = Air to Air Kills
715 = Ground Targets (loss of 125 pts of objects JU87s destroyed)
598 = Defense of bases

2763 = TOTAL

ALLIES
705 = Air to Air Kills (loss of 375 pts for killing JU87s)
925 = Ground Targets
814 = Defense of bases (increase 125 pts for objects JU87s killed)

2444 = TOTAL
[/list]

By not using the JU87s the Axis would have had 33 planes still to deploy. They could have deployed them the same way defensively on Sardinia and Sicily. Or they could have had them a bit thinner and more escorts assigned to JU88s strikes.

The Axis even without the JU87s did attack all 3 target zones. They had assigned the 68th, III/Jabostaffel, 65th, 9 GIAP, and the DAMNED against the targets.

Plus, even taking the JU87s out the axis still hit the three target zones before T+60.

As for the allied planes being back up to alt and full ammo. In the case of A103 there were in good position and the non JU87 forces only did 19 points to the base.

A25 was hit by 42 JU88s plus escorts and 400 points garnered. The shills in JU87s tried to hit A25 .. they actually dumped on the town there for no points.

So maybe you would have had those defenders also to help against the HQ hit.

Malta was savaged by the non JU87s squads assigned to hit it. And then later by the defenders of eastern Sicily after they took care of the small attack in that region. Looks like the Allies deployed 16 Spitfires and 4 Mossies from Malta. The non JU87 attack came in 30 minutes after the JU87 attack. 5 JU87s were shot down .. so again .. not sure of the real affect of the JU87s. The definitely pulled some down to the deck and used up there ammo. But allies probably would still had a decent screen in place.

So overall the Axis might have been less successful against the ground targets. Then again they might not have been.

But looking at the numbers (doing more analysis) it actually looks like the JU87 strategy might have ended up hurting the Axis. They loss 375 points of aircraft by doing the attacks and only scored 125 points by hitting their ground targets (personally I suprised we did that much damage). So a net loss of 250 points actually based on the results.

If the Axis had gone say with maybe some 110s, little stronger escorts, or more JU88s, and then kept a large fighter force in Sardinia .. based on the above numbers .. they might have done much better in the frame.

So while the Axis strategy was an innovative attempt at dealing with the strategic issues facing them it looks like it actually hurt them slightly.

Casper1 · « **Reply #33 on:** August 28, 2005, 04:08:09 PM »

ghost -

Did you discount the original crashes (some of which look to have been counted as 'killed by unknown') of JG44, where we were given permission to auger cuz we upped without our formations (doh!)?

Just asking bud, thanks for all your hard work on this!

Casper1

FiLtH · « **Reply #34 on:** August 28, 2005, 04:59:47 PM »

I wouldnt mess with the thing too much. Start making a squad fly a lousy ride with no chance of fun, and guys start forgetting to show up. Its human nature. I know if my friday night was going to consist of a stuka run and dying(which normally happens in stukas), I may have stayed at the party I left to get home to do FSO.

Second lives are necessary. Simpy announce which bases are second life upping bases so both teams can plan accordingly. However care must be taken not to force a 2nd live spawn in an area that can be easily suppressed by the enemy denying you a launch.

ghostdancer · « **Reply #35 on:** August 28, 2005, 05:34:48 PM »

Yes, I don't count augers in the first T+15 of the frame. Since allow for people upping do to crashes, discos, etc. in the first T+15.

So I didn't count those augers.

BBQ_Bob · « **Reply #36 on:** August 28, 2005, 07:18:56 PM »

People lets get over it already, nobody augered there is no way that would happen. It is in everyone's nature to try and survive, I was in a JU 87 attacking A47, we were on the deck almost to the base when we saw spits up high we made sure that they saw us and and came down to the deck to chase us back to A47 where we dropped our ords, soon after the spits made short work JU 87's. JG 26-357th did not auger, I mean think about what you are saying it makes no sense at all. Really is there anyone out there that would do that, I don't think so this is not the M.A. the people that fly in FSO are cut from a different cloth we will do everything we can to complete our assigned missions. It just did not happen.

JB42 · « **Reply #37 on:** August 28, 2005, 09:30:35 PM »

And where was the uproar when I posted about the IL2s getting a second life?

Dace · « **Reply #38 on:** August 28, 2005, 10:15:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by JB42
And where was the uproar when I posted about the IL2s getting a second life?

42 u know the Axis take it in the butt round here:D

~S~

Dace · « **Reply #39 on:** August 28, 2005, 10:18:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by ghostdancer
Dace Hornet and I already discussed this issue. It was another person in this thread that my latest round of posts were addressing not Hornet.

Same issue although about percieved augering on command, 2nd life Stukas, etc.

Yes I understand, my post was meant to be viewd by the other person as well. There were some respectful squads in question there and I was just trying to clarify that fact. No hard feelings.

~S~

doobs · « **Reply #40 on:** August 28, 2005, 11:23:58 PM »

assuming I'm the other person, my appoligies I do realize that FSO squads are cut from another cloth. But look at it from my point of view; I wasn't there and was looking at the logs as a baseball boxscore for someone who didn't see the game.
And from that point of view alone, it looked questionable(not saying it happened). I did say it seemed not saying it happened.

I should have worded my opinion better, my main gripe is what and where second lives come from.

Again i can't appoligize enough for my earlier post, I realize the cream of the crop flies FSO and I don't mean to dispect any squad.

TracerX · « **Reply #41 on:** August 29, 2005, 08:19:21 PM »

Now I have heard it all. May I designate the topic of 2nd life to "FSO biggest pain in the A"? When someone complains about IL-2's getting a second life, I understand, but Ju87's?? They are about the most benign airplane in the plane list, and about the only thing you can accomplish in one is to waste someone else’s ammo.

Hornet33, I know you from the racing league, and I am not attacking you, but I have never felt that Ju87's would ever draw the "no fair" card in FSO. Your comments have helped me make an important observation about the 2nd life I have never thought of before, and which makes me believe more strongly that the 2nd life status should be used even less than I had originally reasoned. Giving 2nd life to someone in a plane such as a Ju87, depending on the CIC giving the orders, almost guarantees that they will have no chance of survival. Because of the 2nd life, we (myself included) have learned to deploy these aircraft into situations and scenarios that would not be dreamed of in real life. What Axis or Allied commander would deploy Ju87's, B5n's or SBD's without air cover? For that matter, what pilots would go on such a mission in real life? Yet we see it all the time simply because they are expendable, and we can plan their 2nd life into the frame.

I do not think that this kind of deployment is beneficial to the FSO event in the long run. Aircraft should be deployed with a realistic chance of completing their assignment. How a second life is used is not the question. A second life is exactly that, a completely different life, representing a reserve unit deployed part way through the event. But tossing away the first life to get to the second life is really what the problem is, weather augered or a suicide mission.

May I suggest a thought on correction? Provide an incentive for preserving the first life. This could be done in two ways, either deduct points from the side for each 2nd life aircraft (Ju87 in this case) that does not return, or give bonus points to the other side for each 2nd life aircraft destroyed. The side deploying the 2nd life aircraft already gets a bonus in the form of a new life in a new plane. Therefore, any pilots not returning from their original mission must pay for their second life in the form of the cost of the new aircraft or in the cost of the aircraft they just gave to the enemy. Any points they earn in the second life aircraft are effectively offset by the fact that they did not return in the first life. I could explain this further if you think it is beneficial GhostDancer.

The only reason I mention this is because the objections to 2nd life have now extended to aircraft I would have otherwise never considered a problem.

Easyscor · « **Reply #42 on:** August 29, 2005, 09:09:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by TracerX
May I suggest a thought on correction?...

When the 2nd life ride is killed the opponent country already gets 15 points and because of the weak nature of these rides, I consider them to be cannon fodder. The points are almost guaranteed unless the CiC and his GL spend the time working out how to increase their survival using limited resources.

IMO You really don't want to be messing with a scoring system that has worked for years, and in one of the AAR above, a large portion of one group actually survived to rtb.

doobs · « **Reply #43 on:** August 29, 2005, 10:32:22 PM »

easy, what tracer i believe is saying is that scoring isn't the problem. But using planes as bait and sacrificing them for what ever reason was not a primary function of the air war in WW2.
especially if ya get a second life in fiter, wheres the incentive to stay alive, in the flying target. (this is not directed at this past frame)

and if everybody already has a prenotion that these type of planes are as good as dead. Then why would anybody try and plan a returnable flight for them. Its a failed notion before its concieved.

ghostdancer · « **Reply #44 on:** August 30, 2005, 08:20:56 AM »

Well I have two suggestions that I am now looking into for 2nd life planes.

[list=1]

They must up from the base they launched from. However, some conditions must be made just in case this base (more likely a CV) is destroyed. So possibly next nearest base also if home base destroyed.
Of the question of incentive to get these planes home. I don't want to increase the value of the plane .. denying the enemy the points if they survive .. i.e. change it to value 20 or 25.

However, might think about giving a survival bonus. You get a JU87 home and landed (logs do capture lands) that side gets points for you doing so. Hopefully that would give the pilots an incentive to try to get home and to the CiC to try to plan missions where they could get home.

Just have to figure out whether to give them their full value of 15 as bonus or say something like 10.
[/list]

These are modifications I am considering based on the constructive feedback here.

Oh, and always there is 1,000,000 point bonus for anyone shooting down Daddog .. friend or foe. ;)