Bush is now President - what about the Former Yugoslavia?

[mietla]

 

Originally posted by Dowding:
For a start, mietla, I keep mistaking you for miko2d. I don't know why, but it keeps happening. Sorry.

No problem. My entire post was designed to yank your chain. I keep forgetting those silly faces. Here we go            

The bottom line is that I agree with you to a significant degree. Each nation's government has an obligation to this nation and nobody else. States enter the treaties to benefit themselves, and most treaties are mutually beneficial at first. The problem is that with time, the situation changes, and thus the willingness to keep the word diminishes.

I could say that I'm pretty sure that, had Hitler attacked GB first in 1939, Poland would start the war (not just the declare it) the next day, but that of course would be just an empty statement.

At the same time I'm sure that the Brits would be a bit "disappointed" if Hitler devoured them while France and Poland watched (after they declared war).

So, let's be honest here. You can't have it both ways. If you are willing to bail out of the treaty which is not convenient anymore, why would you be so upset if others would do it to you.

[Toad]

Dowding, you're too easy. I'll try to stop.  

However, I like your idea of a European super-state. I think if you guys can pull that off without killing each other again it would be great.

We'll go back to minding our own business here in the states because basically we (the real "average americans") have no desire whatsoever to be involved in world affairs other than open commerce. Washington laid it out for us at the very beginning.

You Euros can then go around trying to make the world conform to your particular image of paradise.

The problem IMHO is you keep attributing European characteristics/world views to us...and they just don't apply.

We're not the ones thinking that everyone should "conform" for the "common good". To the contrary, this county was based on having the liberty to be different as long as you are not damaging anyone else.

Bush/Cheney/Powell/Rice are going to start bringing US troops home where they belong. It's long overdue. We never wanted to be the world's police force. We'll probably develop an effective large "quick reaction" force but it should be based here. Maybe we'll finally get our Armed Forces down to an equivalent size for the average European country as a % of population, funded by an average % of GDP. (Man, just think of all we could spend on health care and education THEN...without raising taxes!)

As for Palestine, I was just wondering why I'm not hearing your pleas for a UN force to go in and "save the world". You seem to be stuck on Kosovo. Don't care for Palestinians or what? 300 dead not enough to stir you to action?  

Once again, with apologies to Country Joe and the Fish:

"Yeah, come on all of you European men,
The UN needs your help again.
The world’s got itself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in the Holy Land
So put down your babes and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is the Holy Land;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die."

 

[LJK Raubvogel]

Very well said Toad. You've pretty much summed up my feelings on our role as "peacekeepers."

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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

 

[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Eagler]

What Toad said!

Eagler

[Toad]

Boroda, why would anyone think the US would attack the any of the Republics?

What danger does the US present to them? Do we desire territory? No. Do we threaten to invade? No. Do we threaten to launch nuclear missiles at ANYONE? No.

In fact, we offer help whenever we can.

Right now China is the nation threatening to nuke the US. Why should it seem strange that we would want to research a defense against that threat?

The treaty can always be renegotiated, with a provision for sharing the technology.

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Toad]

CNN website, 20Dec00:

"The deaths brought the toll to 368 people, most of them Palestinians, killed in a Palestinian uprising that erupted in late September."

[Dowding]

I wasn't wound up, guys, I was just enjoying the opposition.  

A wise man fights the battles he can win.

That is something that has been true both in war and peace for thousands of years. Only martyrs and desperados think otherwise.

If the Europeans (and Americans who don't agree with you, of which this BB is generally not representative) were intent on creating a 'paradise' based on some altruistic ideal, then we'd be in Zimbabwe and another half-dozen 'hot-spots'. The truth is it would be too costly financially and politically to do such a thing; stability in the Western democracies might be compromised.

But where we can make a difference, we should make a difference, especially when it's on the same continent. Moreover, if we want stability in our countries, considering the many ethnic tensions already present, preventing preventable ethnic conflict overseas is good foreign policy.

In relation to the US Armed Forces overseas, withdraw all American troops from abroad and your grand-children will pay for it. If anything can be learned from the 20th century, it's that isolationism and appeasement do not work.

As for Israel etc., what could a UN force do there? The Arabs are not isolated, but are in fact well supplied by sympathetic nations. It would be hard for a bunch of caucasian troops to be seen as objective, and would be targetted by Arabs whom it would be hard to isolate.

As for the number of dead, in some African countries 368 people die every DAY.