This is fascinating---timeline

[Westy]

"They all blew it. Nagin, Blanco, Brown, Chertoff and Bush. Be careful not to admit that though."


 I agree.  I'm no fan of the mayor (or the governor).  Would hate to live in any state or city that they had them in charge.  I personally would like to see him hang right along the likes of the gov, Brown Chernoff(sp?) and the absolute moron that put them there.

 I was (and am) simply trying to add counter weight againt the Bush Brigades typical stance that "the buck stops over there!"  Bush is the "teflon Don" who responsibilty for bad choices or inaction onto someone or something else. Every time.   I don't keep it a secret that I truly loath Bush and his administration.

I just do not see any credibilty in the "bus theory." as it was to late to move them, too late to force people by gun point to drive them as wellas get on them to get out of town. And even then someone would needed to seen into the future to know that they would need to be parked (and manned) at the Superdome to evacuate 20,000 plus people.




Gun_(party hack)_slinger asks"Who are you liberals going to blame when there's no more Bush?"  and rpm replied, "ANY idiot that runs their office the way this one is."

rpm nailed it well perfectly!

[Xargos]

Bush hates the poor in NO so much that he ordered this to be used then he told FEMA not to respone no matter how much they cried.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Westy

I just do not see any credibilty in the "bus theory." as it was to late to move them, too late to force people by gun point to drive them as wellas get on them to get out of town. And even then someone would needed to seen into the future to know that they would need to be parked (and manned) at the Superdome to evacuate 20,000 plus people.

This is what I think you are missing.

Those buses were AVAILABLE to move people from right after school on Friday night. 500 buses with 50 folks crammed into them = 25,000 folks. And they didn't have to drive to Salt Lake City. They just had to get them out of N.O. and into a church or a gym or a National Guard armory or the like. And don't forget the buses of the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority. They probably had several hundred buses too.

It's not a question of "was there transportation available". There was. Lots of it. However, there was a total failure of leadership in putting those buses to use in a timely manner.

Remember this: In a city that is below sea level in an area that is commonly hit by hurricanes (Gulf Coast) the Mayor of the city HAD NO PLAN TO EVACUATE THOSE WITHOUT TRANSPORTATION.

The formal

"city of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan suggested people develop their own way to get out. "The potential exists that New Orleans could be without sufficient supplies to meet the needs of persons with special considerations, and there is significant risk being taken by those individuals who decide to remain in these refuges of last resort," it says...."

Another place routinely hit by hurricanes sees it quite differently and, more importanly, sees it correctly:

.....Florida, by contrast, for two decades has required counties to establish and maintain permanent databases of "special needs citizens," and arrange rides for people with no transportation. The state also has shelters established for myriad medical conditions.

Florida emergency officials agree that last-minute planning simply doesn't work.

I suspect we would all now agree that "last-minute planning simply doesn't work".

The "bus theory" is simply this. Buses WERE available. Nagin NEVER made the decision to use them to evacuate, even after the levee broke, let alone BEFORE the hurricane hit which is what should have been done.

Like it or not, I don't see how Nagin can avoid the responsibility for so many of the poor and disabled dying in this disaster.

The Gov and the rest all up the line are going to get slammed too, as they should.  But it starts with Nagin not ensuring that the New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan considered those with special needs and/or no transportation.

[Toad]

This from Colin Powell's interview with Barbara Wa-Wa (to air Friday night)

“When you look at those who weren’t able to get out, it should have been a blinding flash of the obvious to everybody that when you order a mandatory evacuation, you can’t expect everybody to evacuate on their own.

Hope Nagin is taking notes.

[Charon]

who are you liberals going to blame when there's no more Bush.

The same people the conservatives blamed when there was no more Clinton... oh wait.

The system is broken from the top down or the bottom up. Doesn't matter. Democrat or Republican.

Charon

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Charon
The same people the conservatives blamed when there was no more Clinton... oh wait.

The system is broken from the top down or the bottom up. Doesn't matter. Democrat or Republican.

Charon

I don't see republicans on TV every night laying blame.

[Shaky]

[Charon]

I don't see republicans on TV every night laying blame.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough? Just like some aren't looking all that hard in the other direction. Everybody is laying blame for everything associated with this right now. I see it in just about every newscast.

Here are some quick pastes:

In a reflection of what has long been a hallmark of Mr. Rove's tough political style, the administration is also working to shift the blame away from the White House and toward officials of New Orleans and Louisiana who, as it happens, are Democrats.

"The way that emergency operations act under the law is the responsibility and the power, the authority, to order an evacuation rests with state and local officials," Mr. Chertoff said in his television interview. "The federal government comes in and supports those officials." http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05bush.html

"The federal government stands ready to work with state and local officials to secure New Orleans and the state of Louisiana," White House spokesman Dan Bartlett said. "The president will not let any form of bureaucracy get in the way of protecting the citizens of Louisiana."

Bush, who has been criticized, even by supporters, for the delayed response to the disaster, used his weekly radio address to put responsibility for the failure on lower levels of government. The magnitude of the crisis "has created tremendous problems that have strained state and local capabilities," he said. "The result is that many of our citizens simply are not getting the help they need, especially in New Orleans. And that is unacceptable."

Brown, a frequent target of New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin's wrath, said Saturday that "the mayor can order an evacuation and try to evacuate the city, but if the mayor does not have the resources to get the poor, elderly, the disabled, those who cannot, out, or if he does not even have police capacity to enforce the mandatory evacuation, to make people leave, then you end up with the kind of situation we have right now in New Orleans."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680.html

"The very day that this emerged in the press, I was on a video conference with all the officials, including state and local officials. And nobody, none of the state and local officials or anybody else, was talking about a Convention Center," Chertoff told CNN.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4216508.stm

Now is it as obvious and as ham fisted as the panicking Democratic mayor and governor in full CYA mode? No, you have to be a bit more careful when you state "now is not the time to blame..." but the blame is clearly there (and certainly deserving as far as I can tell).

And Bush just sacked "Brownie" from the job. I guess the buck stops there...

Frankly, I imagine there will be plenty of real, justified blame to go around at all levels. The one group not being blamed that has the most responsibility, IMO, is the American people for just not caring all that much about anything for the past 20 years or so, unless you count last night's American Idol or wassup with Brad and Jennifer.

Charon

BTW, my blame list in this disaster:

1. Apathetic American people who basically accepth "lesser of two evils" choices from both parties and get what they pay for with their votes from the city to the White House. I have been in this catagory for far too long but that has already changed.

2. City and local officials (policies, budgeting, priorities, staffing, waste, etc.)

3. Federal government (policies, budgeting, priorities, staffing, waste, etc.)

[rpm]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
SO it's Bush's fault that a Democrat Mayor didn't have a good enough evacuation plan?

It's Bush's fault that this city wich is run by democrats has an above average poverty status?

yea try to charge the mayor with something.  You hear race card being played now......

Guns, you and I see eye to eye on a lot of things, but you obviously didn't see this earlier post:

Originally posted by rpm
Every politician involved dropped the ball on this one. Nobody is innocent. Bush has his share of the blame, as well as Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin. It just shows the incompetence of everyone involved, unfortunately it is costing people their life.

It's an across the board fubar. Bush, Blanco and Nagin. It's not a Republican vs Democrat thing. It's an incompetent idiot politician thing.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by rpm
Guns, you and I see eye to eye on a lot of things, but you obviously didn't see this earlier post:
 It's an across the board fubar. Bush, Blanco and Nagin. It's not a Republican vs Democrat thing. It's an incompetent idiot politician thing.

Yea I know but I'm just real pissed as of late that it seems Bush and Fema bared the brunt of it when IMHO they are not the responsible party and did the best the could with what they had.

Not a single day after the hurrican you had the Left blaiming bush for global warming and cutting funding.  The left went into full on blame mode the second the winds cleared.

Even MT here blames Bush for not getting there faster.  As if HIM being there helps anything.  On the contrary it hurts things as he is a vital part of the govt with a big entorage and would hinder efforts.  

I am not at all saying Bush isn't to blame.  Maybe Brown wasn't the best choice for FEMA and this administration does have a tenacity for appointing "friends" to high level positions, but too many people are blaming FEMA for all of this when they don't even know what FEMA does.

Then the Race card.....that just angers me to no end at all.  It is why people that are poor and cry race will ALLWAYS be poor no matter what they or their state does.

This whole event illustrates one big thing to me and should to everyone else.  Liberal social policys don't work.  N.O. is a shining example of that. [rant off]

have a good weekend RPM

[Toad]

The accident investigation is now complete:

Here is the conclusion of the report:

"It's quite obvious that Captain Nagin misread his approach plate, put the wrong course into his CDI and tuned his ILS radio to the wrong frequency for the runway in use. Further, he became disoriented in the weather, failed to read his instruments correctly, entered a spin, failed to recover and crashed the B-737 into the swamp, killing the crew and 100 of the 120 passengers instantly.

The co-pilot, Blanco, did not intervene in any way during this progressively worsening situation other than using the PA to ask the passengers to pray that it would all turn out all right.

After the crash, the 20 surviving passengers eventually perished due to the late response of emergency rescue personnel. While it is true that the rescue teams had to cross a nearly impassable swamp to get to the crash site, it is also clear that the managers of the rescue operation, Brown and his boss Cherthoff are incompetent political hacks that should never have been in those positions.

Therefore, the Board has no choice but to blame the politician, Bush, who appointed Brown and Cherthoff to positions supervising the emergency response teams for every single life lost in this tragic accident."

There, now we have things in proper perspective I guess.

[SaburoS]

Jeebus! Will you all get a grip??!!
It was Clinton's fault! (There now the picture is complete)

BTW, Charon for President 2008!