Documentation of 2000HP Bf 109s in 1945

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually I think he means the 109-G10s being used for operational testing.

Trying at the moment to get a document enlarged and cleared up that is dated 1 day before OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45 thats shows LW units and the fuel they are using.

[/B]

Please do that. Clear up that document so clear so that everyone can see what it shows : title saying it`s for Luftlotte 6 in March 1945, it operated in the Eastern Front through most of the war, inc. 1945. Quit clear, really.

Besided if one takes a look on the 6730 DB memo from Jan 1945 can find one such sentence :

"Da die einstatz im Osten vornemlich mit B4 geflogen wird..."

"As the operations in the East will be primarly flown on B4..."

... and it becomes quite obvious why the March 1945 strenght and fuel situation report for the Eastern Luftwaffe units tells B-4 fuel is being used. It was planned this way from the beginning, eastern units relying on B4 and older types of aircraft, while western ones getting the high-end equipment.

Besides, the emphasis and specifically mentioning that the Eastern front units primarly rely on B4.... makes you think then the Eastern front was special in this regard that it was specially noted.

Originally posted by Kev367th
All 4 K4 untis are listed as using B4 which incidently should finally clear up the "it is not known how many or if K4 units changed prior to the order".Obvioulsy they DIDN'T.

[/B]

Obviously some did, since it`s known that Gruppe 2/11 already did in January, that documented. The March 1945 doc otoh only mentions which units will convert to 1.98ata, not which are the ones running on it, so there may be other, we don`t know.

Besides as noted, the blurry doc you have so high hopes for, is showing the units of the Luftflotte 6 on the eastern front in March 1945. It doesn`t tell anything before or after March 1945, neither about the other fronts ETO and MTO. Not to say there were WAY more units operating the 109K than just four, but since you are so much fond of the types operational career, you can list those others us, can`t you? Of course you can`t, you just make the noise, having nothing better...

Nothing new in his original post, same old rehash of suppositions, and assumptions..

[/B]

I think everyone can make up their own mind on that, without someone playing mind police.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Also, nice spin you put for C3 fuel. So how much C3 did the Italians receive after that initial delivery in Dec. 44 when the fuel shortage was not as critical? And, what use did the Italians have for J-2???

They got plenty more. You can get that information from the ANR book. It`s only 70-odd USD. Buy it, cheapo.

As for the J-2 fuel, they used it for the Jumo 004 jet turbines, of course.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Squire
Well if the +21 lbs was achieved on 100/130, I cant see them putting 150 into in to run at the same boost.

[/B]

+18 lbs achieved on 100/130, +21 was achieved on 150 grade fuel.

My book could be wrong, but it states a speed of 400 mph at 2000 feet for XIVs modded to run on 150 gas for anti V-1 missions. [/B]

You book is correct, I`ve got that XIV test, it was tested along with Tempest and Mustang3 to get an effective buzzbomb chaser, the planes themselves had some equipment removed for extra performance, ie. the Spitty was stripped of the wingtips, mirror, racks and some minor items, the leading edge was repainted. However at +25 lbs boost the engine developed troubles during the test, and the results were actually extrapolated from existing data. I doubt the boost ever saw more use than this test, even the summer 1945 Spitty 21 tests note +21 lbs as the boost limit with 150 grade.

Unless the 150 stuff was only given to the IXs and P-51s. You guys tell me.[/B]

Not only for them, but in `44, it was still a rare item for about half a dozen squadrons chasing the V-1s, incl XIV, most of the 150 stuff going to the USAAF`s units.

The boost diffo cause is in the engine, the IX/51`s Merlin was cleared up to +25 lbs, but the Griffon would only take +21 - different animals after all - one document from summer 1944 notes the cause being main bearing troubles. High boost could be only used with the use of 150 grade fuel, which was only available in Britain, so when in Sept44 the XIVs left for the continent, they had to run on +18 again until the 2nd TAF too received 150 grade fuel in January 1945. Basically the highly boosted versions saw very little anti-fighter engagement until 1945, for they were too busy fighting V-1s, and not too many of them around, then because leaving Britain. The true, serious use began in January 1945, when some 30 Sqns of IXs/XVIs were planned to switch to 150 grade, and the Wing with XIVs.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Squire
As for the 1.98 ata 109K-4 you quote various sources, some of which are contradictory. I really have no idea when 1.98 was the "norm" for 109K-4s. I will leave that to those who have more data than myself.

It was certainly not norm until 1945. From March 1945, you can say it was norm though, since all the four 109 Wings that left to guard the Eastern Front - JG 27 and JG 53 - were using 1.98ata, while the others transferred to the EF and tried to do something against the Red Flood.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
They got plenty more. You can get that information from the ANR book. It`s only 70-odd USD. Buy it, cheapo.

As for the J-2 fuel, they used it for the Jumo 004 jet turbines, of course.

Typical, you resort to insults when you got caught in a lie or manipulating info. So .

What jet a/c did the Italians have?


The norm? Only in someones dreams.

OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45

No. Unit Present type

1. III./ JG 1 Bf 109 G-10
2. II. / JG Bf 109 G-10
3. III. / JG 3 Bf 109 K-4
4. III. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4
5. IV. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4
6. III. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14
7. IV. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14
8. III. / JG 6 Bf 109 G-14/AS
9. II. / JG 11 Bf 109 G-10
10. I. / JG 27 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
11. II. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10
12. III. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
13. I. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14
14. III. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14
15. IV. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14
16. II. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14/U4
17. III. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14
18. II. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4
19. III. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
20. IV. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
21. I. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-14/U4
22. II. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10
23. III. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10
24. III. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6
25. IV. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6
26. I. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 G-10/R6
27. II. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 K-4
30. I. / KG(J) 27 Bf 109 G-10/R6
31. I. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 G-10/R6
32. II. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 K-4
33. Ist Italian FG Bf 109 G-10
34. IInd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10
35. IIIrd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10

The norm ??? when only 40% of the OoB is the understrength Gruppen that were authorized to use 1.98. Only you Barbi could spin such a incredulous tale.


So nice of you to claim that 11 a/c were a Gruppen that was operationally testing 1.98. The key word is testing.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
It was certainly not norm until 1945. From March 1945, you can say it was norm though, since all the four 109 Wings that left to guard the Eastern Front - JG 27 and JG 53 - were using 1.98ata, while the others transferred to the EF and tried to do something against the Red Flood.

Prove it, produce ONE document the proves they were using it. Don't base your claim on a document that PROPOSES they use it.

Can't say it was the 'norm' at all. It's your guess.

As for Italian use of C3 - Fine, doesn't prove the Italians used 1.98ata either.
Remember - 1.98ata NEEDS C3, not vice versa, use of C3 does not mean 1.98ata.

Anyway look, you keep on posting this on a regular basis, you are still no further forward to posting on piece of concrete evidence.
Yes we can all assume, suppose, and guess, doesn't mean squat without something to prove it.

[MiloMorai]

Have to agree Kev. Only he could come up with such a Alice in Wunderland story.

On fuel, those 79 operational K-4s required 31,600l (79 x 400) of fuel for just one mission. Add another 23,700l (79 x 300) for drop tanks. Total for one mission by the 79 K-4s > 55,300l or 12,165 Impgal.

[Kev367th]

It's like his quest to prove K4s had active flettners fitted, despite being told by Butch that EVERY picture he has seen of a K4 with flettners shows them missing the actuating arm.
And that in fact they were locked down.

What I would be interested in -
The document he keeps on referring to stating the 4 K4 ubits are to convert to 1.98ata.
How many of those directives on that document were carried out in total?
I.e it also proposes something like an extra 20 K4 units, how many got them? Just in total on that document, how many happened?

Just put a Y or N after each entry.

No. Unit Present type Convert to Notes
1. III./ JG 1 Bf 109 G-10 He 162 (April/May) -
2. II. / JG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
3. III. / JG 3 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
4. III. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
5. IV. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 K-4 -
6. III. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
7. IV. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
8. III. / JG 6 Bf 109 G-14/AS K-4 when deliveries permit -
9. II. / JG 11 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
10. I. / JG 27 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
11. II. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
12. III. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
13. I. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
14. III. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
15. IV. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
16. II. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
17. III. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
18. II. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
19. III. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
20. IV. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
21. I. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
22. II. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
23. III. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
24. III. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 planned, deadline
25. IV. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 -
26. I. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
27. II. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 K-4 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
30. I. / KG(J) 27 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
31. I. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 G-10/R6 - -
32. II. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 K-4 - to industrial defense
33. Ist Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
34. IInd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
35. IIIrd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -

[MiloMorai]

Now lets look at the C3 fuel required for one mission by the 1091 servicable BMW powered Fw190s on April 9 1945, without droptanks.

1091 x 640l = 698,240l or 153,594Impgal

And he wants us to believe than the puny number of K-4s requiring C3 for 1.98 operation would get presidence over the 190, especially since a goodly number of those 190s were FBs being used to try to stop the Red Horde, he says the Reich was so preoccupied in stopping.

[Kev367th]

Not only that -
1) Standard off the prod line K4's could use C3 and B4 fuel.
2) If a K4 was converted to 1.98ata it HAD to have C3
3) Reversion to B4 could not be carried out at unit level (Butch from another thread somewhere here)
4) 190's HAD to have C3

This was at a stage in the war were other units (prod, transport, training etc) supplies of fuel was being drastically reduced in order to divert it to the frontline units.

So barring any concrete evidence to the contrary "we can safely assume" it would make sense to leave the K4 capable of using both types of fuel because the 190's had to have C3.

All he does have is -
a) A couple of units of G10 NOT K4 used 1.98ata in Jan 1945 for operational testing only.
b) Butch says clearance was in Feb 1945 (he also says a scarcity of C3)
c) A proposal in Mar 1945
d) 79 serviceable K4 AND G10's in April 1945

Doesn't add up to K4s used 1.98ata.
What he's missing is something that shows conversion took place.

Milo - I'm not going into this with him again. It's the same old stuff just rehashed.
He's been asked now for who knows how long to post 1 piece of solid evidence.
You can't rely on a proposal and then use that to say it must of happened.

RE: The doc I am trying to get blown up and cleaned up, two out of the 3 units you list are shown as using B4 on it.
The original has now been removed form the JGIII website .

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Kev367th
As for Italian use of C3 - Fine, doesn't prove the Italians used 1.98ata either.
Remember - 1.98ata NEEDS C3, not vice versa, use of C3 does not mean 1.98ata.

Lot`s of words, ZERO documentation gents. You can make you guesses if you wish.

What was the word... it`s 'pissing against the wind'.

C-3 use doesn`t prove 1.98ata was used, true, but funnily at the same time, the MiloMoron argues with home fabricated numbers that C-3 was so much needed by FW 190 units that it wasn`t allowed

Hmm... let`s see the two claims together. if C-3 was really that scare, and so much needed by 190 units, than how come that even Italian units, hardly preferred by the Germans who supplied them, got their MAJORITY of fuel shipments even when it wasn`t neccesary? Perhaps it had something to do with the Fishcer-Tropsch report that says 2/3, the majority of the fuel production was C-3.

Give it up, you can make more noise, I can`t care, nor others, there`s so much evidence around, and there`ll probably more in the future, that .

Every single doubt, and way of denial that was made up by naysayers that could be was researched -  if there was C-3 avaiable for 109s, if the 1.98ata was cleared for service use, if 1.98ata was ordered to several units for use - and evidence was provided.

And the trouble is, the introduction of 1.98ata is way better documented than the introduction of +21 lbs to the XIV. Any of the doubts casts on the introduction of 1.98ata hurts twice as bad the XIV, since there`s no documentation at all about how many Sqns finally converted to it, for how long time, or wheter these units receieved the neccesary fuel for it. They probably did, but let`s play the same game, and then it becomes they didn`t.

Now enough of the nonsense, against the evidence, it`s just mute shouting on your part.

[Kev367th]

Wouldn't matter if only ONE squadron of Spit 14 used 21lbs boost, at least there are squadron records and pilot reports showing they did.
That would still be one more than you've proved.

eg


Not an order from the Ministry of Defence saying they propose to go to 21lbs, a sqn level daily report showing they WERE being or already HAD been converted.

All I'm asking for is something similar in return that proves converison took place, not that an order was issued.

It took from 20th Nov 1944 (order for 2TAF to use 150 grade) until Jan 1945 for the first units to start converting.
Thats about the same time from the German order to convert, to the end of the war. (6 weeks - ish)

The intent to go to 1.98ata is clear, what you haven't proved is that the intent translated into anything at K4 unit levels.

Why drag the Spit 14 into it anyway? You know there is squadron level reports showing  21lbs boost, not a lot but they did.

Like I said even if only one used it, it's one more squadron than K4 unit than you can show used 1.98ata.

[MiloMorai]

Kev, he drags the Spit XIV into the discussion as he is loosing, ie his story is so full of holes a bolder would fall through, and it diverts the discussion away from 1.98. His typical tactic. Next he will have the Mods lock down the thread as he does over at the Zoo when his Goebbel's like speels are shot down.

His comprhension ability is severly limited. If he reads the F-T text properly he will see that it states in the last years of the war and also states probably. So nothing definate on the quantity and nothing for the last 6 months. The F-T link also gives the quanity produced in 1943, not 1945. Even if the 2/3 is taken at face value, the 190s required 96.6% of the production. Not much left over for other a/c using the BMW801 and he wants us to believe that his 4 Gruppen would get some.

Now lets look at some of his other lack of comprehension:

- claims 11 a/c is a Gruppen, when in fact it is only a staffel.

- he claims that 1.98 units were the norm when it was only 40% of the OoB and that is only if they had totaly converted.

- he claims I stated C3 was not allowed when in fact I said the 190s would have preference.

- he claims authorization of 1.98 means it was used but provides no documentation from Gruppen level unlike documentation showing the Spit XIV squadrons were using 21lb boost.

- he posts a doctored document to show the Italians were getting C3 which also shows the Italians having J2 for which they had no use for. The document also states until Dec 1 1944. Nothing about receiving any in 1945.

Kev, I guess Barbi has told the webmaster to remove the item as it puts a hole in his Alice in Wunderland story. If a lie is told often enough somehow it becomes the truth so every time he posts his stories they must be shown for what they are, a story.

No fabrication Barbi. Those numbers come from the Alfred Price source you have quoted. So if my numbers are fabrication, what does that make yours?

[Kurfürst]

Yada-yada-yada.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Yada-yada-yada.

Truth hurts doesn't it Barbi?