Author Topic: And Now From Our What Were They Thinking Department  (Read 2592 times)

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2005, 11:55:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flit
If your not religious, how about just not saying the "under God" part, and not forcing Your beliefs down everyone else's throat ?
 As for me, I never took the "under God" part as being religion forced upon me, but as part of  a pledge of loyalty to a Nation.
 Because of the ACLU , and entities like them, this Nation is becoming the Land of the Three, instead of the Land of the Free.
  If you don't want your kids to say the Pledge of Alliegence, then homeschool.
  It's that simple.
   Instead, these boneheads are forcing thier beliefs ( or lack of , depending on how you look at it ) on everyone else, while tying up the  courts and wasting public money.


Only because other "boneheads" are forcing their beliefs on others. Careful with how you paint things.
Edit- If you want your kids to have religion, then go to the religious school of your choice, or homeschool. It's that simple.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 11:57:47 AM by SaburoS »
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Flit

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« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2005, 01:01:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
If you're religious, how about just saying the "under God" part, and not forcing your beliefs down everyone else's throat ?

 I do, and I don't

Offline Flit

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« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2005, 01:03:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
Only because other "boneheads" are forcing their beliefs on others. Careful with how you paint things.
Edit- If you want your kids to have religion, then go to the religious school of your choice, or homeschool. It's that simple.

 Thanks, you made my point

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2005, 01:06:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flit
I do, and I don't
By suggesting that the non-christians need to change what they do and you don't, sure sounds like you're operating squarely in the middle of the 'shoving down throat' zone, no less so than anyone who asks that the pledge not be mandated in public schools because it violates their religious beliefs.

Are you maliciously not getting it?  Or do you seriously not see the similarity?
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2005, 01:07:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flit
Thanks, you made my point


No, you made my point. ;)
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Flit

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« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2005, 01:25:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
By suggesting that the non-christians need to change what they do and you don't, sure sounds like you're operating squarely in the middle of the 'shoving down throat' zone, no less so than anyone who asks that the pledge not be mandated in public schools because it violates their religious beliefs.

Are you maliciously not getting it?  Or do you seriously not see the similarity?

 Nope, not at all-I'm suggesting that that we all have a choice.
 You can choose  to say "under God", or you can choose not too.
  Thats the beauty of living in this country.
 And the pledge, IMHO, does not affirm ANY religion, it is a catch-all to cover All religions.
BTW, I'm agnostic , I don't know who's turning the crank, I just hope he don't stop. :aok

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2005, 01:29:58 PM »
How does it encompass all religions?  Buddhism, atheism, all polytheist religions...  these are not covered by 'under god' for obvious reasons.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline A_Clown

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« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2005, 01:31:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
My point is "god" is inclusive to a great many religions.
Not just one.
Had they said Jehova or Mohammad... or Budda  (forSaburoS sake) or something along those lines it would be an entirely another story.
God is not religion specific and as such does not violate the constitution if we go by its original intent



I agree

Offline Flit

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« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2005, 01:43:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
How does it encompass all religions?  Buddhism, atheism, all polytheist religions...  these are not covered by 'under god' for obvious reasons.

 I reckon those are the ones who can  leave "under God " out
 When it was put in the Pledge in 1954, this Nation was overwhelmingly Christian, and was put in as a counter to communism (i.e. "godless countrys").
 I think that the only ones who complain about it are Nitpickers who will complain about anything they don't understand.
 I say we put it to a nation wide vote, and see what happens.:lol

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2005, 03:07:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flit
I say we put it to a nation wide vote, and see what happens.:lol


LOL is right.

The measure of a democracy is not how well it serves the majority, it is how well it protects the minority.

Offline forHIM

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« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2005, 03:47:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
Edit- If you want your kids to have religion, then go to the religious school of your choice, or homeschool. It's that simple.


I do.  Now can I get my taxes back that support all the heathens in public school?

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2005, 04:26:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flit
I reckon those are the ones who can  leave "under God " out
 When it was put in the Pledge in 1954, this Nation was overwhelmingly Christian, and was put in as a counter to communism (i.e. "godless countrys").
 I think that the only ones who complain about it are Nitpickers who will complain about anything they don't understand.
 I say we put it to a nation wide vote, and see what happens.:lol


Well, I can relate to this because our national anthem starts with God of nations, so I refuse to sing it. So I'm "left out".

Why does under god have to be there anyway? If it was added in that easily I'm sure it could be removed that easily. Nitpickers? Who are the freaking nitpickers who got it put in there then?

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2005, 07:53:26 PM »
I actually do agree with Sandy here:

Quote
I've stated it before and I'll state it again... I think the Pledge of Allegience lacks any meaning at all. It's trite. Most people simply say the words and don't even pause to think about what they mean.


The Pledge is so over stated by kids, so repeated that it loses any meaning.


That's not an excuse to get rid of "Under God" though.  God can be anything.  Any higher belief you want, or even:

Quote
Mother is the name for God on the lips and hearts of all children.


No one is saying that it needs to be a christian god, or muslim god, or even a god anyone has thought of before.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
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Offline rpm

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« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2005, 08:43:25 PM »
The correct answer is:
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
     one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

October 11, 1892

I'm all for traditional values.. I say we go back to the 1892 version.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline Fury

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« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2005, 08:44:36 PM »
In 1892, 1923, 1924 and 1954 the American people demonstrated enough concern about the actual words in the Pledge to make some necessary changes.  Today there may be a tendency among many Americans to recite "by rote" with little thought for the words themselves.  Before continuing with our tour, let's examine these 31 words a little more thoroughly.

I Pledge Allegiance
I Promise to be faithful and true (Promise my loyalty)

to the flag
to the emblem that stands for and represents

of the United States
all 50 states, each of them individual, and individually represented on the flag

of America
yet formed into a UNION of one Nation.

and to the Republic
And I also pledge my loyalty to the Government that is itself a Republic, a form of government where the PEOPLE are sovereign,

for which it stands,
this government also being represented by the Flag to which I promise loyalty.

one Nation under God,
These 50 individual states are united as a single Republic under the Divine providence of God, "our most powerful resource" (according to the words of President Eisenhower)

Indivisible,
and can not be separated.   (This part of the original version of the pledge was written just 50 years after the beginning of the Civil War and demonstrates the unity sought in the years after that divisive period in our history)

with Liberty
The people of this Nation being afforded the freedom to pursue "life, liberty, and happiness",

and Justice
And each person entitled to be treated justly, fairly, and according to proper law and principle,

for All.
And these principles afforded to EVERY AMERICAN, regardless of race, religion, color, creed, or any other criteria.   Just as the flag represents 50 individual states that can not be divided or separated, this Nation represents millions of people who can not be separated or divided.
 
 Thus it is that when you Pledge Allegiance to the United States Flag, You:
*Promise your loyalty to the Flag itself.
*Promise your loyalty to your own and the other 49 States.
*Promise your loyalty to the Government that unites us all,
     Recognizing that we are ONE Nation under God,
     That we can not or should not be divided or alone,
     And understanding the right to Liberty and Justice belongs to ALL of us.
 

http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html

As for the beginning part of what I copied:
In 1892, 1923, 1924 and 1954 the American people demonstrated enough concern about the actual words in the Pledge to make some necessary changes.
maybe they will add 2006 to that list of years?