Lawrence Thompson meets Hartmann's G-14

[Bulz]

Originally posted by Scrap
Perfect account of the P51 runstang in action.

OMG!!  I knew some weenie was going toruin a good thing!

GReat story... I bet the smell in his cockpit wasn't from an oil leak!  HEHEHE

[Bulz]

Originally posted by JB12
I would think that Thompson would've rathered it to be Hartman other wise he was outflown by a rookie 109 pileit.
Of course he was probably making it up to impress his squadiies and didnt realize the all knowing AH2 fantics would know the difference,but we do.Because as everyone knows the 109 will own the pony,unless it dives.


JB12

LOL!! Get a clue!  First:  A "rookie" would not have had a 200 painted on his tail.  Second:  109 would not own a P-51.  Get out of your fantasy filled "JB" world and realize the 109 was outclassed by the P-51B, C, and D in all but initail excelleration and climb.

[KCDitto]

Originally posted by Angus
There were other good 109 Pilots than Hartman, and although he is the top scorer, he was probably not the best duelist.
Best deflection shooter is told to have been Rall, and the best stuntpilot Marseille.....

The BEST MARKSMAN was by far Maresille     what somthing like 7  rounds per kill

[Angus]

Marseille may have gotten out of it with the fewest shots pro kill, but it was his nice setup that allowed it.
Most of the hits were at VERY close range with rather little deflection.
Rall is told to have been the ultimate wild shooter, - deflection shooting under G with the enemy below the nose.
Of course, Rall modestly points at Marseille as the best shot...

[Bruno]

Hartmann's career is well documented.

He had over 200 kill in Mar '44 (10 kills on 2 Mar '44 / 202 kills total). He had 300 kills as of Aug '44.

Whoever Thompson 'fought' (if he even fought anyone) it wasn't Hartmann.

[KCDitto]

Originally posted by Angus
Marseille may have gotten out of it with the fewest shots pro kill, but it was his nice setup that allowed it.
Most of the hits were at VERY close range with rather little deflection.
Rall is told to have been the ultimate wild shooter, - deflection shooting under G with the enemy below the nose.
Of course, Rall modestly points at Marseille as the best shot...

I am packing for a move so I can't get the book and page number for you but.......

Mike Spick after interviewing one of Marisells' wingmen recounted the day when he returned from a sortie and excliamed "I figured it out" He then went on to describe how he made his DEFFLECTION SHOTS   somthing like when the taget plane dipped BELOW the spinner at this point fire then climb  and how this wingman witnessed amny time when Mariselles walked the bullets from spinner to tail.

I think that makes him awsome ! and it is sad the way he died.
Just imagine the KILL record had not his Franz caught fire from an oil leak.

[Angus]

It was a 109G. His first ride in the G I think.
I have a chapter on Marseilles, and I met Rall eye to eye.
Is there a book on Marseilles?

[Mime]

lol silly Americano verteran makes up such a story, as if he would survive a fight against Hartmann the uberpilot. :-)

[Angus]

Well, mmmm,  if you look at K/D stats of the allied novices you might find their rate quite good considering that many of their best scored almost every single kill well over enemy territory.

[Kweassa]

lol silly Americano verteran makes up such a story, as if he would survive a fight against Hartmann the uberpilot. :-)

 "Experten" who survived through thousands of missions through many years, with hundreds of kills, may be shot down by a clandestine rookie who just felt lucky that day.

 That's what we call "War".

[Angus]

Rudorffer got shot down 17 times.
Rall got shot down 8 times.
Hartmann had to hit the silk/ground like 2 times, but NEVER lost a wingman, - which is impressive.
None of the German top guns had THOUSANDS of missions. Something more like 1000 to 1500 hrs.
Pat Pattle had 50 killes, - therefrom many in a biplane. He got shot down once AFAIK.
Johnny Johnsson did not get shot down.
My old friend T.E.Jonsson had some 1200 hrs in WW2, with mere 9 kills. He most likely never even saw as many enemy aircraft as Hartmann shot down. He did not get shot down. He fought on as a cargo pilot in the Nigerian/Biafra crisis (60's), and did get shot up badly in his last mission, although he got through it unscratced, - 400+ missions in a freighter over enemy territory, getting shot at by flak and intercepted with Migs.
So, who is the best of all aces? I don't know. There were many good, that's all.

[KCDitto]

Originally posted by Angus

None of the German top guns had THOUSANDS of missions. Something more like 1000 to 1500 hrs.

DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hartman flew 1,425 COMBAT sorties  not including training and ferry flights.

Was in 800 dogfights!

Suffered 13 equipment failures

preffered to ride his plane into 12 crash landings

he BIALED out only 1 time over Romania


He had 352 CONFIRMED Kills  he was quted as saying there were a few others that he hit but was to busy to follow.

He was also a great marksman having shot down a plane with 1 cannon round!

So unless every flight lasted only 1 hour (flying over the vast expanse of Russia) I am sure he had WAYYYYY  more then 1400 hours of FLIGHT time!!

Ditto

[Angus]

Hartmann actually crashed a stuka  on takeoff I belive before his first kill occured.
His first dogfight was with his wingman (superior officer) which Hartmann misidentified.
And a typical combat sortie was about 1 hour, - hard to get it to even 2 in a 109.
1425 missions is very much, - even for a German ace. But last time I checked, 1425 is not THOUSANDS