Author Topic: P51D Skin request. 4th FG for Fencer51 (Read 3894 times)

Guppy35 · « **Reply #30 on:** December 04, 2005, 12:53:08 AM »

MachNix,

How bout this one from the same time frame as Red Dog, to go with it?

Swept back red nose 4th FG bird on a B model with the Malcom to go with the D. Gotta admit they'd look good together

MachNix · « **Reply #31 on:** December 04, 2005, 02:23:25 PM »

Guppy35,
Post an actual picture if you have one. It will help me with the details and speed up the submission/approval process. Have any info on pilot and the bird's history?

Fencer51 · « **Reply #32 on:** December 04, 2005, 02:40:10 PM »

[Standing Ovation]

Guppy35 · « **Reply #33 on:** December 05, 2005, 12:08:41 AM »

This was the photo I based the profile on. It's dated as taken December 25, 1944 in the 336th revetments area at Debden.

336th FS, 4th FG. Doubtful at that point it had an assigned pilot. Probably flow by a new guy, winging one of the vets in the more usual D models.

Fencer, if this bird gets in the game, I'm gonna come looking for ya to wing up. I'll take the B and pretend I'm Pappy Grove

You can be Red Dog Norley

Fencer51 · « **Reply #34 on:** December 05, 2005, 11:29:29 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Guppy35
This was the photo I based the profile on. It's dated as taken December 25, 1944 in the 336th revetments area at Debden.

336th FS, 4th FG. Doubtful at that point it had an assigned pilot. Probably flow by a new guy, winging one of the vets in the more usual D models.

Fencer, if this bird gets in the game, I'm gonna come looking for ya to wing up. I'll take the B and pretend I'm Pappy Grove

You can be Red Dog Norley

Works for me Guppy!

Man wish you were with us last night, we did another buff escort and this one made the last one look like a cakewalk. All 4th FG rednoses (and 2 Ghosts) escorting B-17s from the Ghosts.

I can still hear all the radials rumbling as the Ghosts took off. Wait, that might be the bombs what blew the heck out of 4 factory sites.

Cheers.

MachNix · « **Reply #35 on:** December 07, 2005, 11:55:16 AM »

Nuts. The photo shows me the correct tail number and placement but there is no red swoop on the nose. HT will not accept fictitious paint schemes even if they look good. Unless we can prove that the red swoop was added to the B models by a certain date, I'm afraid there isn't much hope for this skin. The same goes for the ID bands on the wings. If there were wing ID bands, would the horizontals also have the bands? Would they be removed when the red swoop was added?

Krusty · « **Reply #36 on:** December 07, 2005, 12:01:46 PM »

Check the photo again. There is clearly a "swoop" on the nose. The anti-glare is interrupted and the color of the bare metal/silver is interrupted in the "swoop" pattern.

Usually red shows up as darker pigment, not lighter. It almost seems like a yellow or some other lighter shade.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #37 on:** December 07, 2005, 12:08:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MachNix
Nuts. The photo shows me the correct tail number and placement but there is no red swoop on the nose. HT will not accept fictitious paint schemes even if they look good. Unless we can prove that the red swoop was added to the B models by a certain date, I'm afraid there isn't much hope for this skin. The same goes for the ID bands on the wings. If there were wing ID bands, would the horizontals also have the bands? Would they be removed when the red swoop was added?

Look again

Heres another view with a photo of a D model below it. The swoop is there, it just looks light in the photo. It's the same as the D model below it from the same squadron of the 4th.

Just in case, I outlined it.

Krusty · « **Reply #38 on:** December 07, 2005, 12:10:42 PM »

I think I've had a thought...

The color and quality of both photos are about the same. However the swoop is definitely not red in the upper photo.

I think it's been painted over with silver, which has a slightly different color than the worn BMF/older silver (I don't know if ponies were truly bare or painted gloss silver).

Any idea why they'd cover up the swoop? It's definitely non-red in nature.

EDIT: It mentions a "frozen fog" which might explain the dim tail code, but that would not explain why a red marking was totally obscured but the blue tail and the olive anti-glare were not.

Fencer51 · « **Reply #39 on:** December 07, 2005, 12:25:06 PM »

A quick search shows 2 P-51Bs labeled with 975 as serials assigned to the 4th FG.

42-106975 P-51B 336thSqd VF-N

43-6975 P-51B 336thSqd VF-S Bar aft of letter

I am betting that its 43-6975

I will check my stuff at home for other photos of this plane and or other Bs in the same time period.

Krusty · « **Reply #40 on:** December 07, 2005, 12:42:08 PM »

I wasn't trying to identify the code, I was using it as an example. While it is dim, it is visible. The frost must be making it dim. However the frost is not erasing it. So one cannot blame the frost for "erasing" the red swoop from the nose.

I was just removing the frost from the equation, the equation being "Why is there no red on the nose?"

Guppy35 · « **Reply #41 on:** December 07, 2005, 01:11:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
I think I've had a thought...

The color and quality of both photos are about the same. However the swoop is definitely not red in the upper photo.

I think it's been painted over with silver, which has a slightly different color than the worn BMF/older silver (I don't know if ponies were truly bare or painted gloss silver).

Any idea why they'd cover up the swoop? It's definitely non-red in nature.

EDIT: It mentions a "frozen fog" which might explain the dim tail code, but that would not explain why a red marking was totally obscured but the blue tail and the olive anti-glare were not.

Sometimes the type of film used would do that. There are other photos where Ortho film makes the red look lite. You can see where the color goes across the OD anti-glare panal that would extend all the way to the prop otherwise.

Can post examples if you don't believe me

OK just one example. Well known P51B of Kidd Hofer. Also well documented markings. You can barely if at all make out the red band on the vertical tail. Red nose clearly looks lite colored.

Fencer51 · « **Reply #42 on:** December 07, 2005, 01:15:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
I wasn't trying to identify the code, I was using it as an example. While it is dim, it is visible. The frost must be making it dim. However the frost is not erasing it. So one cannot blame the frost for "erasing" the red swoop from the nose.

I was just removing the frost from the equation, the equation being "Why is there no red on the nose?"

I think that's because it might be a 363rd FG Mustang. I found two references to it being flown by the 363rd FG and lost in March 1944.

See this list HERE

Yet this does not make sense because it has a Malcom hood!

Guppy35 · « **Reply #43 on:** December 07, 2005, 01:17:55 PM »

Figured out why I knew that

Krusty · « **Reply #44 on:** December 07, 2005, 01:25:14 PM »

Interesting about Ortho film. However it makes the red darker than the surrounding silver. On the previous photo the red (if its red) is actually lighter than the surrounding silver.

Is it possible it's another quirk of the film? Yes. It's just that in general ("in general" mind you!) red takes a darker pigmentation.