Author Topic: P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")  (Read 1738 times)

Offline Wilbus

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« on: September 20, 2005, 11:23:06 AM »
Thought I'd open a little discussion about this issue.

This thread is not ment to be harsh and act badly towards Cobra, however I do think that you should read more books about the P51 (preferably not propaganda books) and pherhaps other fighters. Hope I don't break any rules by this, we'll see HTC's response.

I met Cobra online in the MA and after having listened to some "The US planes are the worst in the MA" and "The P51 was the best fighter of the war but in AH anything beats it" and discussed it somewe finally went in the DA to try a few things. (On Cobras request :) )

I state that a P51, flown the right way, will beat an A6M5 any day.

Cobra states that the P51 was designed for turning and should outturn the A6M5. Also states that the P51 was the best fighter of the war and is represented in AH in a bad way. I do not agree.

I brought up wingloading in the discussion, stating that turn radius is a directly affected by wingloading. Hopefully you will have read up on wingloading in time to reading this thread Cobra as I got the impression you don't know what it is or what it does.

The film shows the discussion we have in the DA, some harsh words are dropped at times but generally "fairly" calm discussion.

There are two flights. Me in P51D and Cobra in the A6M5. We meet at 5k. Had my gunnery been better with the 50 cal (normally only use Mg151 20mm so big difference) and had I not suffered from serious nose bounces my gunnery would surely have been better.

You will see early on in the text buffer that Cobra wants me to turnfight the P51 vs a Zeke, my simple reply is "why?"

The first fight ends in a vertical HO with me on the top and Cobra is put on fire (with some harsh words dropped after).

The second fight goes on for a while, some fighting some talking and I prove my point in it by putting the P51 in a 200mph climb and then going level quickly extending away from Cobra and then coming back, from there on I totally controll the fight while Cobras zeke is left to purly defencive maneuvers. While I do not score  a kill I force him to ditch after he's run out of fuel (put a hole in his fuel tank).

Cobra, you also state that the 50 cal guns in AH suck big time, in this fight I hit you with 15-20 rounds. Not nearly enough to bring down a fighter unless they hit exactly right (engine, pilot).
The 50 cal were great weapons, they are in AH aswell but you are needed to hit more then just a couple, they were not nor are not any kind of wounder weapons.

The fact that you did not have more dammage is because the AH dammage modell doesn't modell induvidual bullet holes, something needs to be shot off in order to make a difference. 20mm guns suffer just as much because of this.

Sugest anybody who agrees with my statement "The P51 was never ment to turnfight a Zeke" or don't agree with it watch the film or atleast join the discussion.

Two files for the film. Self extracting Rar archive (chose a folder and it will extract a single AH film file). This is done cause I can not upload anything greater then 2mb files at the moment.

File 1

File 2

I've virus checked both files and they are clean. You may get a warning before opening them though because it is an .exe file, some virus programs warn you about that.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2005, 11:25:41 AM by Wilbus »
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Gryffin

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Re: P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2005, 11:28:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
Cobra states that the P51 was designed for turning and should outturn the A6M5.


:huh :lol

Well, I guess the P-51 will outturn a zeke ... if they are both doing 400 mph :p

Offline eilif

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2005, 11:52:33 AM »
:lol  dont waste time arguing with newbs!  even a 2 day green horn knows not to turn a 51 with an zeke/zero.

Offline DipStick

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2005, 12:03:32 PM »
Seems alot of work for a dweeb who knows not of what he speaks.

Offline Karnak

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2005, 12:03:58 PM »
Umm, ok.  I thought that one of the most basic and famous understandings to come out of WWII air combat from an American perspective was that you do not turn fight against Zeros.

Seems somebody didn't get the message.  Seems this somebody also buys into propaganda a bit too much.

I really like Spitfires and Mosquitos.  The best all round fighter of the war, IMHO, was the F4U.  I don't realy care for F4Us.  What we like doesn't have to be what we think is the best, nor does hype equal reality.
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Offline Wilbus

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2005, 12:09:04 PM »
Ok just calculated wingloading and replied but must have messed up and missed the reply before shutting down the window.

Anyway, wingloading for an empty P51D was aproximatly 148kg/square meter. Loaded was at 241kg/square meter.

Empy A6M5c was 88kg/square meter and 128kg/square meter at maximum take off weight. So even a fully loaded Zero would outturn in a P51D (empty = no fuel) in a turnfight.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Panzzer

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2005, 12:56:22 PM »
Just type in the path you want to extract the .ahf to in the Målmapp-field or press the Bläddra to browse (C:\program files\HTC\Aces High II\films for example) and click on the Installera. You need both files to extract the ahf.
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Offline Westy

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2005, 01:01:10 PM »
Gotta be a new, stupid noob "Cobra" cause the old Cobra (who hasn't posted on these boards for about a year and a half) was on the ball and had class.

 Since this a new, stupid,  clueless noob ( with a lousy attitude to boot) I personally can't see why you'd waste the time with him.

Offline Wilbus

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2005, 01:03:18 PM »
sorry it was in swedish.

TW9, do what Spazzer said :)

If you still can't get it to work let me know and I will re-post the files without self extracting. I can't post the ahf file as I can't upload it (5mb I can only upload 2mb files).
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline straffo

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2005, 01:39:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TW9
i keep getting some error message i dont understand

well you know the swedish don't understand either ?

They speak a fake language ! I swear !

Offline Wilbus

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2005, 01:41:31 PM »
Hey TW9.

Rgr posting the files without self extracting file.

You need something to unrar them with though. Such as winrar. Sorry I can't post the AHF file because I can't upload files larger then 2mb. If you wish, I can mail you the AHF file if you either mail me at "rasmus_friluft@yahoo.se" or give me your mail :)



File 1

File 2
« Last Edit: September 20, 2005, 01:44:15 PM by Wilbus »
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Wilbus

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2005, 01:42:16 PM »
LOL Straffo, so true
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Alpo

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Re: P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2005, 01:43:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus

You will see early on in the text buffer that Cobra wants me to turnfight the P51 vs a Zeke, my simple reply is "why?"



That is the key entirely.  Just the other day I was trolling for buffs in a G10 at about 12k.  Dot on the horizon turns out to be a 15k zeke.  Neither takes the HO on the merge (refreshing :aok) and the zero reverses in the 0.2 seconds a zero can.  I just continue past, wep on and climb.  When I would get a little seperation, I'd reverse, cause him to turn hard while I just climbed some more.  Eventually we ended up at 20k and the zero wasn't performing quite the same.  One more pass to the vertical, came down, promptly missed my shot, zoomed vertical again to catch him at the top of the his loop with a canopy shot.   to Macchi on that fight (don't get those often enough).

Almost every plane has it's advantages and disadvantages, it's up to the player to understand what those are and then use them properly.

Yes, a P51 can turn... however, I wouldn't suggest too many revolutions with a zeke :D
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Offline Morpheus

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2005, 02:51:10 PM »
The only way you have a chance of turning with a zeek is 350 mph and up. Make a few realy agressive turns to force an overshot on the Zeek but still retain enough E to get the hell out of dodge if you cannot land a hit or get into trouble.

I will turn with just about anything win or lose i dont care. But when i get below 250mph I in a 51vs zeek I start thinking about what plane Im going to fly next.


That being said.. The 51D is a bad mother in AH. It will turn like a champ...
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Offline Guppy35

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P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra")
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2005, 02:53:10 PM »
I flew the AH2 51D for the first time the other night when I jumped in a mission.

I can see why folks use it a lot.   The speed it has sure makes a difference.  For an old 38G driver it was different to be able to walk away from just about anything.  And as long as the turning was being done at higher speeds, the 51 had no problem.  But I wouldn't want to turn fight in that thing low and slow, that's for sure.

Now I've been in a couple of fights like that 38G to 51B and D, and each time while the speed was up, the Mustangs were turning with me, but as we slowed the 38G was turning inside of em too.

No way I'd turn with a Zeke in one.

And anyone who would claim that the 51 historically turned with Zekes, doesn't have a clue.  

Rule number 1 for USAAF fighter pilots fighting Zekes was keep the speed up and don't turn.
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