Author Topic: P51D vs Zeke fight (MA/DA Discussion and Test with "Cobra") (Read 1772 times)

Wilbus · « **Reply #30 on:** September 21, 2005, 02:54:27 AM »

Well Teufl, the 50 caliber shouldn't be as good as cannons. These are non explosive half 12.7mm rounds vs 20mm rounds with High explosives in them.

While 50 cal suffer from a DM that doesn't affect the plane unless something is shot off, the same goes for 20mm. 50 cal has got plenty of things that makes them better guns in AH, range, trajectory, velocity and ammo load (ammo load for most planes atleast). While quick kills aren't archived as nicely in close as 20mm hits if you do hit on convergence or close they are leathel. I think most people have convergence set to far, I see very few people now days trying to bring me down at 400+ and I know the vast majority have their convergence at 400+.

Widewing, pretty much what I tried to say during my discussion before. A fairly intelligent flown P51 will totally dominate the fight. I prove this in the second flight when I decide to extend and come back and my flying there wasn't exactly whole hearted, more concerned with talking then flying.

Wilbus · « **Reply #31 on:** September 21, 2005, 05:20:05 AM »

TW9. You must download BOTH File 1 and File 2.

Make sure you have Winrar installed. Like I said, give me your e-mail and I can send you the file instead if that make things easier for you!

Angus · « **Reply #32 on:** September 21, 2005, 05:58:12 AM »

This:
"Cobra states that the P51 was designed for turning and should outturn the A6M5. Also states that the P51 was the best fighter of the war and is represented in AH in a bad way. I do not agree. "

LOL, what a git. The P51 is a so-so turner, we all know that.
But a Hurry I can give the a6m5 a headache

And the D3A, perhaps also the Kate, not sure.
All in the wingloading sector.

A 109F vs a Zeke makes a fun fight BTW.

SirLoin · « **Reply #33 on:** September 21, 2005, 06:05:43 AM »

You a class act Wilbus...never mind the planes..maybe he learned something.

FiLtH · « **Reply #34 on:** September 21, 2005, 08:30:08 AM »

I often make a couple turns with a zero in just about anything I fly. Some planes you can do 1 or 2, others 3 maybe even 4, but after that just about any plane starts to lose the turn fight.

Wilbus · « **Reply #35 on:** September 21, 2005, 08:42:54 AM »

Rgr that Filth, it isn't very smart however to even start turning with a zeke like that as you will lose the E you might have. If you do kill him that is good but if you miss the whole fight will take a whole lot longer as you need to extend and get new E.

OTW TW9

Thanks SirLion, I hope he did and I hope he takes a look at this thread and post a reply.

Hajo · « **Reply #36 on:** September 21, 2005, 02:29:31 PM »

Cobra......even if Wilbus was in a Boeing B52 he'd out fight you

Suggest you do some reading. For instance such facts as "The FW190 will out turn a Spit IX at high speed, but as speeds fall and the 190 loses E it is suggested that the 190 breaks the turn to keep his speed as the Spitfire will easily turn inside the 190 in prolonged turns etc. etc. etc.

Schatzi · « **Reply #37 on:** September 21, 2005, 02:48:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
...LOL, what a git. The P51 is a so-so turner, we all know that.
But a Hurry I can give the a6m5 a headache
And the D3A, perhaps also the Kate, not sure.
All in the wingloading sector.

A 109F vs a Zeke makes a fun fight BTW.

True. The a6m always gives me a headache in my HurriMk1. The Zeke is an even matched turner against Hurri (if not the slightest bit better vs Mk2). And it has the advantage of a canon to end fight quickly.

Zeke Vs Pony??? Turn the Stang and your dead quickly. (Even pilot skills supposed).

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #38 on:** September 21, 2005, 02:59:14 PM »

Pilot skill supposed the pony pilot will never end up in a situation to turn with the zeke.

x0847Marine · « **Reply #39 on:** September 21, 2005, 04:17:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing
Above 11k, and all the way up to 17k the P-51B is a bit faster than the D model. Above 25k the B is again faster.

In terms of turning, the B is lighter for a given weight of fuel and does turn somewhat better below corner velocity. IMHO, the P-51B is the better of the two, but the P-51D packs considerably more wallop in terms of number of guns and ammo load.

My regards,

Widewing

I thought the D was faster at alt, some super charged turbo add on, or something.

Widewing · « **Reply #40 on:** September 21, 2005, 06:49:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by x0847Marine
I thought the D was faster at alt, some super charged turbo add on, or something.

Nope, the P-51B is powered by the V-1650-3 engine, which has different supercharger gearing than the V-1650-7 in the P-51D. That means that they hit their peak power in low and high blower at different altitudes. This is from actual offline testing.

On the deck, the P-51D is faster by about 8 mph. At 10k it's still 5 mph faster (406 mph to 401 mph).

At 11k, it evens out at 411 mph for both. At 12k the P-51D begins to lose some speed until at 16k it's doing 405 mph.

However, the P-51B is hustling along at 425 mph, one mph faster than the Tempest.

At 17k, the P-51B starts to slip a bit. At 20k, the P-51D is doing 425 mph, the P-51B 421 mph.

By 25k the P-51D is making 441 mph, and the P-51B is doing 438 mph.

At 27,600 feet, the P-51B hits max speed of 444 mph, while the P-51D has fallen to 440 mph.

Up at 28,500 feet we see the P-51B able to reach 441 mph, with the P-51D at 438 mph.

So, it depends very much at which altitude the P-51s are at. Nonetheless, between 11k and 18k the P-51B accelerates faster,
climbs faster and is capable of higher speeds than the D-Stang. These are heights where engagements are relatively common in the MA.

My regards,

Widewing

Widewing · « **Reply #41 on:** September 21, 2005, 07:03:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
Widewing, pretty much what I tried to say during my discussion before. A fairly intelligent flown P51 will totally dominate the fight. I prove this in the second flight when I decide to extend and come back and my flying there wasn't exactly whole hearted, more concerned with talking then flying.

Last night I only had enough time to fly one sortie, so I took a P-51D. After dispatching a 190A5 caught on the deck, I spot a high con coming in and see it jousting with another Rook. I head over and discover it's a Zero (A6M5) and the Rook is in a P-51D, but lower and somewhat at risk. What little E the other Mustang had was wasted as he tries to climb away from the faster Zeke. I turned on the film and waded in. I made a high-speed run and took a snap shot hoping the Zero would break off from the other P-51. He didn't. So, I execute a climbing reverse and bore in from dead astern. Pulling off power to get the closure rate down, I lined up behind and blew the Zeke's tail off at about 200 yards. He made no effort to evade, blissfully hammering away at the P-51 800 yards in front of him.

I was hoping for a good film to demonstrate the P-51's utter domination. Instead, all I got was a good film of why target fixation is a bad habit...

My regards,

Widewing

humble · « **Reply #42 on:** September 21, 2005, 09:40:04 PM »

Obviously this one has been beat to death:)....the only point I'd add Widewing just covered. The pony driver can dominate the fight using just about any style of "aerial kung fu" he wants by utilizing Throttle, flpas, rudder in the oblique verticals. A pony is only "at risk" while the zeke has a positive E state (and the positional advantage to use it) or if the pony "goes flat" for more than a 180 degree turn. Even then I think a fast pony in a flat 2 G turn will run the "outside track" faster than the zeke could pull for a lead shot...a conversion to a gentle nose up condition would still probably net a "spiral rope"....the only possible way the zeke can win is actually played out in the 1st clip (according to the description)...if the zeke aggresively takes the "under" in a vertical two circle fight he can potentially force multiple vertical front quarter engagements....basically it becomes a cat and mouse with the pony playing hang the prop and the zeke playing pop the radiator. Given the outstanding flaps and low speed handling the zeke is a roman candle 9 out of 10 I'd guess...

SkyChimp · « **Reply #43 on:** September 21, 2005, 09:56:51 PM »

hehe.....

51 can't turn with zero... End of story I've flown the 51 alot (one of artlaws trainees)

Wilbus · « **Reply #44 on:** September 22, 2005, 03:50:31 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing
I was hoping for a good film to demonstrate the P-51's utter domination. Instead, all I got was a good film of why target fixation is a bad habit...

My regards,

Widewing

BWHAHAHAHA so very true

Btw, as far as P51B goes. While the charts don't show anything about 30k anymore I remember it having its max speed between 30 and 35k or so. Will go test it.