Author Topic: M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...  (Read 2401 times)

Offline Jochen

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2001, 03:29:00 AM »
Quote
You see, jet turbines have a funny way of generating incredibly high exhaust gas temperatures

That is why swedes didn't buy them, the huge IR signature makes them very easy targets if opponents have IR seeker missiles or atleast they are easily observed.
jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

Offline Ripsnort

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2001, 07:43:00 AM »
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Originally posted by Pepe:
Rip,

I wouldn't trust 100% Discovery channel when making that kind statements. I saw an F-22 report, where they stated (spanish translation) it could dogfite any plane in the world, even a Su-27     ;)

Cheers,

Pepe

Pepe, I hate to break you the news, but in a close combat guns only dogfite, the F22 would run circles around the SU27.  Its about 3/4 the weight and size, and has an equal thrust to weight ratio to that of the SU27.  Wish I could give you the reports I've seen on these aircraft side by side, but unfortunately, I belive its proprietary information and I'm not willing to risk my job to prove my point.

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]

Offline Pepe

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2001, 08:07:00 AM »
I think I missed by 10  ;)  How about Su-37?

Cheers,

Pepe

Offline Ripsnort

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2001, 08:12:00 AM »
Not familiar with it, but I *think* its another very large fighter/interceptor..no? The F22 is about the same size, if not a hair smaller, than the Mig 29.

Offline Ripsnort

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2001, 08:30:00 AM »
Here's some F22 stuff:

First look/first shot/first kill in all environments: A combination of improved sensor capability,
                            improved situational awareness and improved weapons provides first-kill opportunity against threats.
                            The F-22 possesses a sophisticated sensor suite that allows the pilot to track, identify and shoot the
                            threat before it detects the F-22. Significant effort is being placed on cockpit design and avionics fusion
                            to improve the pilot's situational awareness. Advanced avionics technologies allow the F-22 sensors to
                            gather, integrate and display essential information in the most useful format to the pilot.

                            Reduced observables: Advances in low-observable technologies provide significantly improved
                            survivability and lethality against air-to-air and surface-to-air threats. The F-22's combination of reduced
                            observability and supercruise accentuate the advantage of surprise in a tactical environment.

                            Supersonic persistence: The F-22's engines produce more thrust than any current fighter engine,
                            especially in military (non-afterburner) power. Called "supercruise," this characteristic allows the F-22
                            to efficiently cruise at supersonic airspeeds without using afterburners. This capability greatly expands
                            the F-22's operating envelope in both speed and range over current fighters that must use afterburner to
                            operate at supersonic speeds.


                            Increased maneuverability: The F-22 has been extensively designed, tested and refined
                            aerodynamically during the demonstration/validation (dem/val) phase and the current Engineering and
                            Manufacturing Development (EMD) phase. The F-22's sophisticated aero-design and high
                            thrust-to-weight ratio provide the capability to outmaneuver all current and projected threat aircraft.
To
                            ensure the F-22 provides air dominance for deep-interdiction aircraft, it operates at medium and high
                            altitude at ranges superior to current generation air dominance aircraft.

                            Improved reliability and maintainability: To ensure operational flexibility, the F-22 has better
                            reliability and maintainability than any military fighter in history. Increased F-22 reliability and
                            maintainability pays off in less manpower required to fix the aircraft and consequently less airlift
                            required to support a deployed squadron. Additionally, reduced maintenance support provides the
                            benefit of reduced life-cycle cost and the ability to operate more efficiently from prepared or dispersed
                            operating locations.

                            Increased lethality and survivability: The above characteristics provide a synergistic effect that
                            ensures F-22 lethality against an advanced air threat. The combination of reduced observability and
                            supercruise drastically shrinks surface-to-air engagement envelopes and minimizes threat capability to
                            engage and shoot the F-22.

                            Air-to-surface capability: The F-22 has a secondary role to attack surface targets. The aircraft will be
                            capable of carrying two 1,000-pound Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs) internally and will use
                            on-board avionics for navigation and weapons delivery support.

                            Engines: The F-22 will incorporate Pratt & Whitney's new F119 engine. Designed for efficient
                            supersonic operation without afterburner use (supercruise), and with increased durability over today's
                            engines, the F119 is a very high thrust-to-weight ratio engine. Advanced technologies in the F119
                            include integrated flight-propulsion controls and two-dimensional, thrust-vectoring engine nozzles.


                                                    Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 Engine

                            Weapons: The F-22 is capable of carrying existing and planned air-to-air weapons. These include a full
                            complement of medium-range missiles such as the AIM-120A advanced medium range air-to-air missile
                            (AMRAAM), and short-range missiles such as the AIM-9 Sidewinder. The F-22 also will have a
                            modernized version of the proven M61 internal gun and growth provisions for other weapons. The aircraft
                            also will be capable of carrying Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs) and other ground-attack
                            weapons.

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]

Offline JV44

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2001, 09:21:00 AM »
Hello....

Its unbelievable....

I start a question about M1A1 and now I be F-22 expert   :D

JV44 (Andreas)

Offline Pepe

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2001, 09:43:00 AM »
Ooops, sorry for hijack.  :o

Offline Ripsnort

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2001, 09:48:00 AM »
Me too! But alas, that's how discussions face to face go too, you start talking about the weather, and next thing you know, you're talking about the Grand Prix!

Offline -lynx-

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2001, 11:00:00 AM »
Well... The question whether M1 can withstand AP rounds are irrelevant - Afgans didn't have tank divisions last time there was a war there, cant' see it changing since. RPG-7 will go through 350-400mm of steel but I hope M1s hull/turret can cope with the shaped charges better than solid metal.

Other problems would be it's weight and manoeuverability in mountain terrain as well as huge heat signature of the turbine exhaust, especially at night. Logistics of getting that fuel to them would be another task and a half

Israel's Merkava (sp?) would be much better tank for this campaign - it carries a troop compliment and has been tried and tested for years in a very similar climate/conditions...

Offline zapkin

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2001, 11:06:00 AM »
I think an M1 could take an f22 and an su27 in a dogfight...wait a minute...i must have misunderstood something LOL  :D

Offline Ripsnort

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2001, 11:06:00 AM »
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
Well... The question whether M1 can withstand AP rounds are irrelevant - Afgans didn't have tank divisions last time there was a war there, cant' see it changing since. RPG-7 will go through 350-400mm of steel but I hope M1s hull/turret can cope with the shaped charges better than solid metal.

Other problems would be it's weight and manoeuverability in mountain terrain as well as huge heat signature of the turbine exhaust, especially at night. Logistics of getting that fuel to them would be another task and a half

Israel's Merkava (sp?) would be much better tank for this campaign - it carries a troop compliment and has been tried and tested for years in a very similar climate/conditions...

In addition, I don't think they will be getting any new tanks anytime soon, not only has Russian supported the US, but China as well, those are your top 3 arms producers.

Offline Syzygyone

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2001, 01:40:00 PM »
Hey, thanks for the info on the exhaust issue with the Abrams.  Never knew that.  Amazing what you learn here at Aces High.

Thanks again!

Offline newguy2

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2001, 01:57:00 PM »
Well... The question whether M1 can withstand AP rounds are irrelevant - Afgans didn't have tank divisions last time there was a war there, cant' see it changing since. RPG-7 will go through 350-400mm of steel but I hope M1s hull/turret can cope with the shaped charges better than solid metal.


It's Pre 1991 again. Question, Iraq didn't have any RPGs in Kuwait or southern Irag? Did we shut down and hide the M1A1 at night?

Offline Maverick

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2001, 01:13:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by newguy2:
Well... The question whether M1 can withstand AP rounds are irrelevant - Afgans didn't have tank divisions last time there was a war there, cant' see it changing since. RPG-7 will go through 350-400mm of steel but I hope M1s hull/turret can cope with the shaped charges better than solid metal.


It's Pre 1991 again. Question, Iraq didn't have any RPGs in Kuwait or southern Irag? Did we shut down and hide the M1A1 at night?


Newguy2,

The M1A1 is very capable at night. It has a fantastic night vision suite that lets it continue as in the day time. As a matter of fact the night vis (Infra Red) makes it easier to monitor what's going on ahead than daylight.

I used a tank IR (in a M60A3) to watch coyotes chase jack rabits on a tank range one summer night. They were at 500 to 2500 yards and easily visible under the scope.

Jochen, I doubt the exhaust temps had much to do with Sweeden not getting the M1. For what it's worth, the regular diesel engine tanks show up just as well as turbine tanks on IR.

Mav
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Offline newguy2

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M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank -> Question...
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2001, 01:52:00 AM »
Mav,
 The top part of that post was what lynx wrote. The bottom questions was what I asked.
Don't know how to use the quote thing.