Author Topic: Super vrs Uber  (Read 20875 times)

Offline Charon

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« Reply #165 on: September 30, 2005, 04:38:58 PM »
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The Me 109 was limited in its roles, just like the Spitfire. However, it's traditionally seen much more critically than the Spitfire - just look at this thread :-) In my opinion, the Spitfire and the Messerschmitt could have switched sides in WW2, and it would have changed nothing at all.


I can certainly agree with that. It's interesting how WW2 launched the multi-mission platform, then, almost immediately, the limitations of the early jet engine pushed platforms back to niche roles until the F4 Phantom era (though some of the century series fighters like F-100/F-104 and foreign equivalents were getting there). That brings up the equally never ending F4/Mig 21 debate :)

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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #166 on: September 30, 2005, 05:10:37 PM »
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Originally posted by straffo
What about stoping comparing apple && oranges ?
Not only you Bruno.


I agree that the comparison is some what stupid, but I didn't make it.

F4U did on page 1 of this thread:

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Take a 1943 F4U-1 and a 1943 109G and see if you can outrun it? Now try turning or diving.


I made no reply on the comparison until page 3, even then I only expanded on a reply made by Kurfurst.

Read F4U's replies and ask him why this thread ended up with:

"the F4U's noodle is big and better then the noodle on a 109G."

 After all that's his line of hijack. I only stated that the 109G was not obsolete by '43.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2005, 05:26:06 PM by Bruno »

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #167 on: September 30, 2005, 05:33:32 PM »
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Originally posted by OttoJ


You really should read the whole thread before commenting. Saves us a lot of bullchit.



wow, someone's liederhosen got all bunched up.  Take it easy Francis...




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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #168 on: September 30, 2005, 05:52:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Not to say there wasn't any P-38s, P-51s but there is none listed below.

Honduras

- F4U-5N: 601/124724 (mid-nite overall; operational in 1969)
- F4U-5N: 602/124560 (mid-nite overall; operational in 1969)
- F4U-5N: 603/124447 (damaged in rough landing on 13 February 1968, used as decoy at Tegucigalpa during the war)
- F4U-5N/P: 604/123168 (mid-nite overall, with anti-glare panel in dark green; operational in 1969)
- F4U-5N/P: 605/122184 (mid-nite overall, with anti-glare panel in dark green; operational in 1969)
- F4U-5N: 606/124486 “El Guajiro” (mid-nite overall; operational in 1969)
- F4U-5N: 607/124692 (mid-nite overall; operational in 1969)
- F4U-5N: 608/124493 (mid-nite overall; operational in 1969)
- F4U-5N: 609/124715 (mid-nite blue overall, with anti-glare panel in dark green)
- F4U-4: 610/93788 (operational in 1969)
- F4U-4: 611/93782 (operational in 1969; crashed in 1974)
- F4U-4: 612/92688 (operational in 1969)
- F4U-4: 614/96995 (non-standard camouflage in - what was apparently – mid-grey overall, with black anti-glare panel and standard national markings)
- F4U-4: 615/97280 (seen at Toncontin in 1969, mid-nite blue overall, with white checkerboard over the engine cowling; damaged the FAS C-47 “FAS-101”, on 15 July)
- F4U-4: 616/97320 (under repair during the war, used as decoy at San Pedro Saula)
- F4U-4: 617/97059 (look unknown, but known to have been active during the war: interned in Guatemala after running out of fuel during combat sortie over El Salvador, on 15 July 1969; crashed in 1977)
- F4U-4: 618/96885 (operational in 1969)
- SNJ-4: FAH-202
- SNJ-4: FAH-205
- T-6G: FAH-206
- T-6G: FAH-208
- T-6G: FAH-211
- T-28A: (5)0-272/FAH-212 (COIN-grey overall, engine cowling in yellow)
- T-28A: (5)0-267/FAH-213 (COIN-grey overall)
- T-28A: (5)0-293(?)/FAH-214 (COIN-grey overall)
- T-28A: (5)0-234/FAH-215
- T-28A: (5)0-???/FAH-216
- C-47: FAH-301
- C-47: FAH-302
- C-47: FAH-304
- C-47: FAH-305
- C-47: FAH-306
- C-47: FAH-307


The Fuerza Aerea Hondurena received 12 P-38Ls in 1947 and continued to use them until they were eventually replaced by P-51s and F4Us in the '60s.  The last P-38 in the Fuerza Aerea Hondurena flew in the early '70s.  A lot of restored P-38Ls came from the Fuerza Aerea Hondurena.

Pre-communist Cuba also flew P-38s that they had confiscated from the Partido Revolucionario Dominicano (PRD) after the U.S. planned over throw of Trujillo was exposed.  The Cuban government flew those until they ran out of parts or were scrapped.

When Italy joined NATO, they received 50 P-38s (J, L and F-5) until they were finally replaced by jets.

France flew the F-5 until 1953 when they were replaced by the F-84G.


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Offline Charge

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« Reply #169 on: October 01, 2005, 11:22:44 AM »
"Wingloading is probably the single greatest indicator of an aircrafts turning capability unless the flaps are deployable at combat speeds and provide significant lift."

I'd like to comment this.

To bring this comparison to modern fighters, compare Mirage2000 and F16. AFAIK the Mirage has more wingarea and lower wingloading but still its superiority against F16 in dogfight is very debatable. So there are other factors, too, which affect the effectiveness of a fighter as a dogfighter.

Sry for this off-topic post once again...

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Offline humble

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« Reply #170 on: October 01, 2005, 12:29:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OttoJ
It is rare for someone to be so completely wrong in every aspect of a post. Congratulations. There is not one correct assertion in your entire post. It is common practice to present some form of documentation that support your argument, like I and others in this thread have done. Can you back up anything of what you've said? No of course not, because it's all BS. Why do you even bother posting?


LOL.....there are literally a hundred "best fighter" of WW2 threads done by all kinds of aviation magazines, think tanks etc.. The judges are all military pilots, most of whom have fired shots in anger and many of whom have flown a significant number of the birds in question. To the best of my knowledge not one such "contest" has ever been won by any varient of 109. Your post regarding the P-51D shows the depth of your ignorance. It's range, speed, climb and armourment were all outstanding....it was not significantly inferior in any aspect to anyplane it faced with the exception of the 262 and the rare Ta-152 at alt. In fact at the operational altitudes it was deployed at it markedly superior to almost every flavor of 109. Even the high alt versions of the 109 had numerous issues at the altitudes the pony handled with ease. If you want to see an idiot....just look in the mirror son...

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Offline humble

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« Reply #171 on: October 01, 2005, 12:51:31 PM »
The Me 109 was limited in its roles, just like the Spitfire. However, it's traditionally seen much more critically than the Spitfire - just look at this thread :-) In my opinion, the Spitfire and the Messerschmitt could have switched sides in WW2, and it would have changed nothing at all.

I'm not sure I completely agree with that statement. The planes were in no way interchangable to an experienced combat pilot. Without question the the 109 was clearly the dominant "E fighter" (at least from 1939-43) {I'm guessing the G10 was double negative to the XIV and the K4 to the XVI}. Given the significant advantage the LW had in tactics thru (1942 at least) the combination gave the LW a significant early edge. However even in 1939/40 german loses over the continent showed that the 109 suffered significantly in any true "dogfighting" encounter. Losing rather badly on occasion to inferior planes and pilots when they chose to "mix it up". German doctrine called specifically for a slash & run style of attack and the 109 excelled in that specific type of combat. However it tended to fair rather poorly when forced to enter sustained combat. Erich Hartmanns "Kill & a coffee break" mentality epitomized "proper usage" of the german tactical doctrine. I'm not certain that swapping out for the spitty would have changed the outcome for the germans (but possibly)....however had the british built a similiar style of plane to the 109 they would have lost the BoB without question simply due to an inferior plane for the mission at hand....

Which is what happened to the germans 4-5 years later. The 109 simply wasnt a suitable platform for the task at hand.

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Offline OttoJ

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« Reply #172 on: October 01, 2005, 05:06:11 PM »
Ah, calling me an idiot will surely prove your point. :lol

Quote
Originally posted by humble
Obviously you are somewhat uneducated on the realities as indicated by all your posts here. The pony was easily the best production design of WW2 (since the F7F was never put in service).


Wrong. The Me262 was EASILY the best production design of WW2.


Quote
Originally posted by humble
The P51-D was a very capable interceptor (superior to any 109 flavor)....more importantly it had the ability to project that capability.


Wrong. An Interceptor needs climb rate, speed and firepower. The P-51 had speed, but was lacking in the other two categories. Even if the RAF had Mustang IIIs and IVs they preferred Spitfires and Tempests for V-1 intercepting since the P-51's firepower wasn't even adequate to shoot down doodlebugs.


Quote
Originally posted by humble
IMO the 190 was a far far superior airframe to the 109 however it had a combat range of ~600km and had nowhere near the performance envelope of the P-51 (or P-38/P-47)


Wrong. The 190 was a superior design, but not "far far superior". In fact for high altitude interception the 109 was still superior to the 190. That's why the Luftwaffe tasked the 109s to engage allied fighters while the 190s went after the bombers.


Quote
Originally posted by humble
A total of 800 or so G models were produced. Range could only be extended via drop tanks which reduced bombload. Even with the ETC-503 "bomb rack" the plane didnt have the range and payload a P51-D had.


Wrong. 950 G-3 models alone were made, so a LOT more than 800 Gs were made. As for payload the 190 could carry an 1800kg bomb on a centerline rack. That bomb alone exceeds the P-51's payload, and in addition the 190F could carry rockets or bombs on wing racks. All 190F, G and some A models had the plumbing for carrying wing drop tanks. However, most pilots had them removed to save weight; there simply wasn't a need for the additional range.

Quote
Originally posted by humble
The G was a build out of the 190A8 so it had the same poor performance that forced development of the D-9 and Ta-152....in fact all german planes had to be modified from 1944 on do due there marked inferiority in some aspect of performance.


Wrong. The G series was a parallel long range fighter-bomber development. The G-1 was based on the A-4, the G-2 on the A-5 etc. The A-8 did not have poor performance. Ask Crumpp about the performance of an A-8 fighter, you and most of the rest of the community seems to think the heavy A-8 bomber destroyer was the only version of the A-8.

All WWII fighters were under continuous development and modification throughout the war. That includes the P-51, P-47, P-38 and other allied aircraft as well. The D-9 was just the natural next step in the 190's development. Development on the D series started in the spring of 1942, with prototype development based on modifications of FW-190A-0 fighters, the first of six flying in March 1942. These machines were given a rear fuselage extension to compensate for the lengthened nose, which had been stretched to fit the Jumo 213 engine, and were armed with twin MG-17 machine guns in the cowling and an MG-151/20 cannon in each wing root. Some problems were encountered, but the type seemed promising enough for the RLM to authorize the construction of "FW-190D-0" preproduction prototypes in late 1943. These machines were similar to the development prototypes, but were based on FW-190A-7 airframes.

Tank continued to tweak the inline-powered designs, resulting in the "Ta-152" series, with work along this line begun in late 1942. So no, the D-9 and Ta-152 were NOT some "forced" development in 1944 to alleviate the "poor performance of the A-8".


Quote
Originally posted by humble
Meanwhile the USAAF had the luxury of swapping out 38's for jugs for P51's and could utilize all planes in any role as needed without the need for any modifications.


Wrong. The P-38, P-47 and P-51 saw extensive modifications thought WWII. Take the P-38 for example: P-38D, RP-38D, P-38E, RP-38E, P-38F, P-38G, P-38H, P-38J, P-38L, and with a myriad of specialized versions including reconnaissance, bomber and night fighter versions.


You really should stop watching Discovery and do a bit more research next time.

Oh and btw. take you own advise:

Quote
Originally posted by humble
If you want to see an idiot....just look in the mirror son...
« Last Edit: October 01, 2005, 05:11:43 PM by OttoJ »

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #173 on: October 01, 2005, 05:25:24 PM »
Hi Charon,

>That brings up the equally never ending F4/Mig 21 debate :)

I actually learned the hypothetical side switch of aircraft types technique from a book discussing jet aircraft, applying it to just this pair :-) I believe it's a good technique as it highlights the asymmetry of the two sides' positions.

In the case of the F-4 vs. MiG-21 debate, it was pretty clear that the MiG-21 would not have been a good choice for the US forces because it lacked the range for effective penetration. (Don't mention carrier capability ;-)

The F-4 in Viatnamese hands, however, would have been a very valuable reinforcement for their air defense system. If it would have received the identification of radar targets from the Viatnamese ground-control system, the F-4 would have been able to make full use of its BVR capability, which would have been a major threat to US operations, and one they didn't have to face historically.

I thought this was a highly interesting way of looking at it! :-)

By the way, weaponry was one area where the RAF would have benefitted from replacing their Spitfires with Messerschmitts for the Battle of Britain - a cannon-armed interceptor was just what they were badly missing historically. However, that would merely have speeded up the (Spitfire-equipped) Luftwaffe's defeat a bit - the end result would have been just the same.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline EdXCal

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« Reply #174 on: October 01, 2005, 07:10:20 PM »
OttoJ, I'd love to know what you were using to get those kill stats, because as said above, there were very few 100+ kills against the other allies besides Russia. And to say otherwise is BS.
If you can give me links to other refrences that you've got, I'd love to read it since the popular view of history seems to be otherwise and your fighting teeth and nail here!
Once again as said before, the Germans destroyed over 7000 aircraft in the first few months of the war, the first few days it was almost on the ground, but your trying to say for the first few months, even the first year all germans kills were on the ground?!?! And the fact that often punishment in the German military was being sent to the Eastern front?
Also, how can you claim there were more kills over Africa then Russia?! The war in Africa didn't last nearly as long nor with nearly as many aircraft or pilots. And as said before there were far fewer 100+ kill pilots against the other allies then the russians and half of the pilots you posted had close to if not more the 100+ kills.
I'd need alot more proof to beleave that statment, if you make a large claim like that then you should show just as much proof from multiple sources.
If you can show me that and totally without a doubt (or as close to it as you can come) prove me wrong, I'll admit to being wrong.

Edward

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #175 on: October 01, 2005, 07:18:50 PM »
Quote
Wingloading is probably the single greatest indicator of an aircrafts turning capability unless the flaps are deployable at combat speeds and provide significant lift.


For turn rate, sure.  This has become the most important characteristic of a fighter only in computer sims.

Minimum radius of turn is extremely important for a fighter.

Allow me to repost this:

You will see that airspeed is very important. I also think the results will surprise many of you. This is not a “high speed” characteristic but rather a low speed one!

Why is airspeed important in the turn? The slower you go the less your aircraft can trade energy for bank angle. The higher the angle of bank, the smaller turn radius a fighter pulls. A smaller turn radius will beat a faster turn rate.

Surprisingly, wing loading and wing design is not the most important factor in determining turn radius. Turning radius is a function of thrust.





The aircraft that can pull a tighter angle of bank at a given speed will have the smaller turn radius.

This is why a heavier fighter with more power can equal or outturn a lighter fighter with less power to a point.

For example, the Spitfire Mk IVX gained considerable weight over the Mk IX yet matches the turn performance of the lighter Mk IX:

Quote
The tactical differences are caused chiefly by the fact that the Spitfire XIV has an engine of greater capacity and is the heavier aircraft (weighing 8,400 lbs. against 7,480 lbs. of Spitfire IX).


 
Quote
The turning circles of both aircraft are identical.


http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14afdu.html

We can also see this in the following reports:





IMHO, this is not reflected very well in the FW190 series.

The FW190 series gained as much power and less weight than the Spitfire or P 51 series.

Granted:

The RAF report is very little science. We only know that Mustangs were met in the air, they matched speeds and did their best to get on each others tail. Further highlighting the arbitrary nature of the report is the pilot is asked to give his opinion on the FW190 vs Spitfire based solely on this 30-minute familiarization flight. No actual flying against a Spitfire Merlin 66 was conducted.

We also do not know the type of Mustang. Given the timeperiod and area, IMHO, the most likely candidates are RAF Mustang I's.

The USAAF report is much better. It gives us airspeed, altitude, aircraft condition, aircraft configuration, and pilot experience.

Quote
That's why the Luftwaffe tasked the 109s to engage allied fighters while the 190s went after the bombers.



The main reason 109's can be found in the escort role is 109 did not have the firepower required to bring down the 4 engine heavy bombers.  It was much harder for the average pilot to achieve the minimum number of hits.  Adding Gondolawaffen limited the 109's maneuverability.

A clean configuration 109 was hardly an outdated design.  IMHO, this myth stems from RAE tests of a Bf-109G6.  IIRC, Mtt was surprised with a requirement to increase the firepower of the 109 series in the Bf-109G6.  This led to the early version being somewhat underpowered.

The FW190 performance did fall off above 23,000 ft, however it was far from helpless.  While the 190's performance fell off at high altitudes, the 109's improved.  The two fighters were very complimentary on their performance much like the Tempest and Spitfire.  Each fighter weakness was covered by the other fighters strength.

With that said, the FW190 did not require escort unless it was an R7/R8, bomber, or ground attack variant.

The G series was the only FW190 equipped with plumbing to carry wing tanks AFAIK.  Its performance was very poor compared to the fighter variant as it had a different engine set up and increased drag.  It was considered a bomber and not a fighter-bomber.  The fighter-bomber variant was the FW-190A when equipped with the ETC-501 rack and ordinance.




The FW-190 did have a superior range to the 109 but it was hardly greatly superior.  Depending on the altitude of the bombers, the FW-190 had about 8-10 minutes more combat time than the Bf-109.  The greatly superior range comes from test's of the FW-190 G series during which the motor was run at most economical cruise for the entire flight profile. This is hardly representative of a combat mission.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: October 01, 2005, 07:30:29 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #176 on: October 01, 2005, 07:26:42 PM »
Crump I read somewhere that the G series used the A8 wing, and that it had plumbing for 2x under wing DTs (and a centerline bomb). That means that the A8 must have had the same plumbing. It is possible that it just wasn't needed, as most missions were short range interceptions, and the like.

Offline OttoJ

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« Reply #177 on: October 01, 2005, 07:29:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by EdXCal
OttoJ, I'd love to know what you were using to get those kill stats, because as said above, there were very few 100+ kills against the other allies besides Russia. And to say otherwise is BS.


This is a good site: http://www.luftwaffe.cz

There were 8 Luftwaffe aces that got 100+ kills on the western front. I've never said "otherwise".

Quote
Originally posted by EdXCal
Once again as said before, the Germans destroyed over 7000 aircraft in the first few months of the war, the first few days it was almost on the ground, but your trying to say for the first few months, even the first year all germans kills were on the ground?!?!


No, but most of the Red Airforce was destroyed on the ground in the opening months of the invasion of the USSR. I don't have exact numbers, I doubt anyone has.


Quote
Originally posted by EdXCal
And the fact that often punishment in the German military was being sent to the Eastern front?


What's that got to do with anything?


Quote
Originally posted by EdXCal
Also, how can you claim there were more kills over Africa then Russia?!


I have never claimed that. Please read my posts rather then make them up.


Quote
Originally posted by EdXCal
And as said before there were far fewer 100+ kill pilots against the other allies then the russians and half of the pilots you posted had close to if not more the 100+ kills.


For the last time; no, only 8 had more than 100 kills in the west.


Quote
Originally posted by EdXCal
I'd need alot more proof to beleave that statment, if you make a large claim like that then you should show just as much proof from multiple sources.
If you can show me that and totally without a doubt (or as close to it as you can come) prove me wrong, I'll admit to being wrong.


It would be very difficult for me to prove something I've never even claimed to be true. I suggest you read my posts a bit more carefully instead.

Offline OttoJ

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« Reply #178 on: October 01, 2005, 07:38:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
The FW190 performance did fall off above 23,000 ft, however it was far from helpless.  While the 190's performance fell off at high altitudes, the 109's improved.  The two fighters were very complimentary on their performance much like the Tempest and Spitfire.  Each fighter weakness was covered by the other fighters strength.

With that said, the FW190 did not require escort unless it was an R7/R8, bomber, or ground attack variant.


I didn't mean to imply that the 190 was helpless at altitude, only that the 109 had superior performance, mostly due to its engine. Had the 190 possessed equal performance at high altitude I think the 109 might very well have been phased out of service before the war ended.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #179 on: October 01, 2005, 07:56:42 PM »
Quote
Crump I read somewhere that the G series used the A8 wing,


They do use the same wing and the G series is plumbed for zusatzkraftstoffbehälter

None of the FW-190A series wings we have are equipped with plumbing for zusatzkraftstoffbehälter.

I think someone could be confusing the universal wiring harness or the authors wording was confusing.  The FW190F's wiring harness was pre-wired with all the external stores it could carry.  There is a plug block in a recessed compartment near the wing rack mounts that contains all the different female fittings for the different stores.  When the ordinance was mounted, it's male fitting was simply plugged into the appropriate outlet for the grossebombenelektrik.  The FW-190A's cannot use the wingmounted racks of the G series or the F series.

The FW-190A's have a similar system but it is wired for the R6 kit and it plugged into their simplified bombing system.  

This is opposed to say the P 38's system.  When the different wing ordinance was mounted, the wiring would have to be run through the wing to a switchbox in the cockpit.

Quote
I didn't mean to imply that the 190 was helpless at altitude, only that the 109 had superior performance, mostly due to its engine. Had the 190 possessed equal performance at high altitude I think the 109 might very well have been phased out of service before the war ended.


I was just clarifying.  You posted nothing incorrect.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: October 01, 2005, 09:05:45 PM by Crumpp »