Originally posted by Kev367th
Subtle Humble lol.
Hell look at the upcoming scenrio,
Initally all Malta had was some Hurris and 3 Gladiators, they failed there also.
In fact much later after the Spit V had been delivered and Malta was secure one German officer commented something along the lines of "The Malta Spits are at it again, they are running circles around us."
I'm sure someone can come up with the exact details.
I'm amazed at how these threads turn into meaningless dribble. Thats not ment in anyway as a "slam" to the parties on either side who often provide a tremendous volume of fasinating (but not really relevent) information.
War is simply the application of force to achieve a specific goal. The "perceived slant" toward "american or allied" weapons of war is nothing other than the by product of the fact overall the americans waged war better then anyone else in history (both in WW2 and today). The facts are that americam/allied weapons of war were for the most part better across the board where it counted. From the 1st day of the war till the end...
Logistics, training and tactics all come into play....but in the end all countries are blessed with inordinate numbers of young men (and women) who will walk (and die) in harms way to protect that which they hold dear. Some of the same brave Poles who failed (but not without victories) during the blitzkrieg found fame and achieved a steller record with the polish RAF squads. French aviators who failed in 1940 fought on with distinction with the russians.
There is no question that german aviators persevered against amazing odds and almost hopeless circumstances thruout much of the war. And that the scores of the expertain are a lasting testimony to the skill, courage and tenacity of the luftwaffe.
However if you look at history you'll find the germans were never the true victors in sustained air combat on any front at any time in the war. You can find no historical example of an "aviation victory" anywhere in luftwaffe history.
German loses in poland were actually quite high under the circumstances. In France the germans were fought to about a standstill in the air. They failed miserably at Dunkirk and in the BoB. Although they inflicted higher casualties during the 1941/42 "circus & rubarb" wars they did so with the benifit of both a superior plane (190A3 vs SpitV) and the tactical advanage of picking times and places of combat. On the other hand they had no ability to project any offensive capability which was the true design intent of the Luftwaffe as an entity....so from 1941 they were effectively nuetered in the west.
They failed miserably at Malta and failed misserably in the east as well when it counted. So by 1943....long before the sheer numbers caught up...the luftwaffe ahd taken its place as the least effective and most ineficient airforce in the world. The one that acheived absolutely not a single victory of its own anywhere at anytime during the critical phase of the war when germany had a chance to win. That failure led to the inevitable "meat grinder" late in the war.
So those of you who are "debating" the german side of this equation have a simple choice to make. You can blame the total failure of the luftwaffe on either the weapons of war....or the brave men who tried and often died in an attempt to protect the fatherland.
As a final thought on this topic I'll pose a question of "alternate reality". Had the May 1944 scenario been reversed with Germanys situation in the east stabalized and England under Strategic bombardment....what would you see happening....
Heres my take...
Allied tactical air would make the use of the channel bases impossible....german bomber forces would be unable to mass close to england so german bomber command would be forced to launch from germany or northren france holland etc. (will assume german dev of a 4 engine bomber)......
So hunter/killer squds of P 4x20mm P 51(B,D) would sweep the marshalling points while mosquitos would try and hit bombers as they prepped for missions. As the bomber formations turned for england P-47's would escort squads of 2x37 (or 4 x 20mm) P-38's to the bomber stream while a second flight of ponies would engage the german escort fighters. As the germans hit the coastal area RAF spit IX's & XIV's would come down from there 37,000 combat patterns to slash thru any remaining escorts. Meanwhile RAF mosquito's would take on the heavies while Typhoons, A26's and US jugs would have been interdicting luftwaffe channel fields preventing the 109s from successfully launching the attack cap.
Inspite of tremendous pressure literally from takeoff 80% of the attacking force has slogged its way to the channel itself and is forming up for the run to IP. The original and mid german escort has suffered heavily but the bombers are still a functional unit....but low on fuel and ammo with many suffering significant damage the remaining 70% of the escorts decend into the maelstrom to find there designated landing fields under attack and there comrades now torn between the need to stay alive themselfs, protect the bombers now above them or watch as there fatiqued brethren are forced to land/ditch under fire.
Between all these impediments only 50% of the 109s tasked as the IP cap manage to make it out and climb up to the bomber stream. As the bombers fly over the coast the british send in the final reserve as RAF F7F's slam into the bomber stream. Armed with 4 x 20mm, 4 x 50cal they inflict staggering losses as they mix it up over the english coast...even as they themselfs take a pounding from the 20mm cannon of the german bombers....with german bombs out the F7F's now turn (as per instructions) on the german 109 escort. With a top speed of 435 mph at alt and superior pure turning ability the brits can keep the germans fighting....some 109s got down...and so do some of the F7F's but the short legs of the 109s force the germans hand as many have to either run or ditch......
meanwhile the remaining bombers turn for home......with the channel fields under siege and the 109s based there engages the bombers are hoping to get in range of the return escort of 190s and 262's enroute to escort them home.
A cloud of planes to the north over the channel spells salvation...untill they are identified as RNAS F6F's....as the 2 x 20mm 4 x 50cal hellcats tear into the already staggered bomber stream the formation disinigrates as planes head to the deck to make the best of it.....
The german "return cap" leader sadly circles his troops and sends the 262's back 1st as he see's the ever present ponies of the US aircorp pickle their DT's as they role in......
