Super vrs Uber

[Meyer]

Originally posted by F4UDOA

The 109 out turning an F4U would be an interesting challenge. A 109F or early probably could, maybe even a G2, I would have to see the wing loading. But I am pretty sure that the later models G6 and up would have a pretty hard time doing that even without the F4U using it's combat flaps.

I don't beleive the people I am arguing with are either trying very hard or don't know very much about what they speak.

How about you speaking of turnrate of 109 when you don't know what was the wingload?

Is Germany really just 26 miles from England?? So much for the myth of German engineering.

[OttoJ]

Erich Hartmann 352  
Gerhard Barkhorn 301  
Gunther Rall 275  
Otto Kittel 267  
Walter Nowotny 258  
Wilhlem Batz 237  
Erich Rudorffer 224  
Heinz Bar 221  
Hermann Graf 212  
Heinrich Ehrler+ 208  
Theodor Weissenberger 208  
Hans Philipp 206  
Walter Schuck 206  
Anton Hafner 204  
Helmut Lipfert 203  
Walter Krupinski 197  
Anton Hackl 192  
Joachim Brendel 189  
Max Stotz 189  
Joachim Kirschner 188  
Kurt Brandle 180  
Gunther Josten 178  
Johannes Steinhoff 178  
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 174  
Gunther Schack 174  
Emil Lang 173  
Heinz Schmidt 173  
Horst Ademeit 166  
Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke 162  
Hans Joachim Marseille 158  
Heinrich Sturm 158  
Gerhard Thyben 157  
Hans Beisswenger 152  
Peter Duttmann 152  
Gordon Gollob 150  
Fritz Tegtmeier 146  
Albin Wolf 144  
Kurt Tanzer 143  
Friedrich-Karl Muller 140  
Karl Gratz 138  
Heinrich Setz 138  
Rudolf Trenkel 138  
Walter Wolfrum 137  
Horst-Gunther von Fassong+ 136  
Otto Fonnekold 136  
Karl-Heinz Weber 136  
Joachim Muencheberg 135  
Hans Waldmann 134  
Alfred Grislawski 133  
Franz Schall 133  
Johannes Wiese 133  
Adolf Borchers 132  
Adolf Dickfeld 132  
Erwin Clausen 132  
Wilhelm Lemke 131  
Gerhard Hoffmann 130  
Franz Eisenach 129  
Walther Dahl 129  
Heinrich Sterr 129  
Franz Dorr 128  
Rudolf Rademacher 126  
Josef Zwernemann 126  
Dietrich Hrabak 125  
Wolf Ettel 124  
Herbert Ihlefeld 123  
Wolfgang Tonne 122  
Heinz Marquardt 121  
Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer 121  
Robert Weiss 121  
Erich Leie 121  
Friedrich Obleser 120  
Franz-Josef Beerenbrock 117  
Hans-Joachim Birkner 117  
Jakob Norz 117  
Walter Oesau 117  
Heinz Wernicke 117  
August Lambert 116  
Wilhelm Crinius 114  
Werner Schroer 114  
Hans Dammers 113  
Berthold Korts 113  
Helmut Lent 113  
Kurt Buhligen 112  
Kurt Ubben 110  
Franz Woidich 110  
Reinhard Seiler 109  
Emil Bitsch 108  
Hans Hahn 108  
Bernhard Vechtel 108  
Viktor Bauer 106  
Werner Lucas 106  
Gunther Lutzow 105  
Eberhard von Boremski 104  
Heinz Sachsenberg 104  
Adolf Galland 103  
Hartmann Grasser 103  
Siegfried Freytag 102  
Friedrich Geisshardt 102  
Egon Mayer 102  
Max-Hellmuth Ostermann 102  
Josef Wurmheller 102  
Rudolf Miethig 101  
Werner Molders 101  
Josef Priller 101  
Ulrich Wernitz 101  

And those are only the 100+ aces. Guess what plane most of them flew?

The 109 shot down more than twice as many planes as any other combat aircraft in history. More aces flew the 109 than all allied fighters combined. The 109 was in service for more than 30 years and with at least 8 nations.

Lets face it, the F4U was a mediocre fighter only suited for slaughtering slow defenseless jap planes. In the ETO it would just have been another target for the 109s and 190s.

The 109 is the most prolific and successful fighter in history.

[MiloMorai]

Only one a/c got shot down more than the 109, that was the Il-2.: At the time of Germany's unconditional surrender there was ~1000 left out of the 33,000 or so produced.

[Bruno]

Weren't you the one that said the 109 could out perform the F4U in every category?

No, please quote where you think I said that.

Other than climb what could the G do better than the F4U-1?

See Hohun's and Kurfurst's posts.

Before I crush you I want to hear you say something else that is completely wrong.

You keep saying 'I am wrong' but you have yet to demonstrate even one point I made that is 'wrong'.

OTOH every claim you made is wrong. From your very first post until now. Even your replies to me in your post above are 'wrong'.

Your to much of a mental midget to crush a grape and I am not to worried about what else you think you can 'crush'.

As an obvious example:

Is Germany really just 26 miles from England??

Where did you go to school?

[Bronk]

Still waiting on that last 109 combat flight.



Bronk

[humble]

Someplace that taught basic subjects like history and geography....Duh.

So how far are the cliffs of dover from Calais....

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Bronk

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Bronk, how big is that grain of salt?

  How big do you have?  Ohh and thanks for the link.

Bronk:aok

Big enough to turn my lake at the cottage into the Dead Sea.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by OttoJ
Erich Hartmann 352  
Gerhard Barkhorn 301  
Gunther Rall 275  
Otto Kittel 267  
Walter Nowotny 258  
Wilhlem Batz 237  
Erich Rudorffer 224  
Heinz Bar 221  
Hermann Graf 212  
Heinrich Ehrler+ 208  
Theodor Weissenberger 208  
Hans Philipp 206  
Walter Schuck 206  
Anton Hafner 204  
Helmut Lipfert 203  
Walter Krupinski 197  
Anton Hackl 192  
Joachim Brendel 189  
Max Stotz 189  
Joachim Kirschner 188  
Kurt Brandle 180  
Gunther Josten 178  
Johannes Steinhoff 178  
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 174  
Gunther Schack 174  
Emil Lang 173  
Heinz Schmidt 173  
Horst Ademeit 166  
Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke 162  
Hans Joachim Marseille 158  
Heinrich Sturm 158  
Gerhard Thyben 157  
Hans Beisswenger 152  
Peter Duttmann 152  
Gordon Gollob 150  
Fritz Tegtmeier 146  
Albin Wolf 144  
Kurt Tanzer 143  
Friedrich-Karl Muller 140  
Karl Gratz 138  
Heinrich Setz 138  
Rudolf Trenkel 138  
Walter Wolfrum 137  
Horst-Gunther von Fassong+ 136  
Otto Fonnekold 136  
Karl-Heinz Weber 136  
Joachim Muencheberg 135  
Hans Waldmann 134  
Alfred Grislawski 133  
Franz Schall 133  
Johannes Wiese 133  
Adolf Borchers 132  
Adolf Dickfeld 132  
Erwin Clausen 132  
Wilhelm Lemke 131  
Gerhard Hoffmann 130  
Franz Eisenach 129  
Walther Dahl 129  
Heinrich Sterr 129  
Franz Dorr 128  
Rudolf Rademacher 126  
Josef Zwernemann 126  
Dietrich Hrabak 125  
Wolf Ettel 124  
Herbert Ihlefeld 123  
Wolfgang Tonne 122  
Heinz Marquardt 121  
Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer 121  
Robert Weiss 121  
Erich Leie 121  
Friedrich Obleser 120  
Franz-Josef Beerenbrock 117  
Hans-Joachim Birkner 117  
Jakob Norz 117  
Walter Oesau 117  
Heinz Wernicke 117  
August Lambert 116  
Wilhelm Crinius 114  
Werner Schroer 114  
Hans Dammers 113  
Berthold Korts 113  
Helmut Lent 113  
Kurt Buhligen 112  
Kurt Ubben 110  
Franz Woidich 110  
Reinhard Seiler 109  
Emil Bitsch 108  
Hans Hahn 108  
Bernhard Vechtel 108  
Viktor Bauer 106  
Werner Lucas 106  
Gunther Lutzow 105  
Eberhard von Boremski 104  
Heinz Sachsenberg 104  
Adolf Galland 103  
Hartmann Grasser 103  
Siegfried Freytag 102  
Friedrich Geisshardt 102  
Egon Mayer 102  
Max-Hellmuth Ostermann 102  
Josef Wurmheller 102  
Rudolf Miethig 101  
Werner Molders 101  
Josef Priller 101  
Ulrich Wernitz 101  

And those are only the 100+ aces. Guess what plane most of them flew?

The 109 shot down more than twice as many planes as any other combat aircraft in history. More aces flew the 109 than all allied fighters combined. The 109 was in service for more than 30 years and with at least 8 nations.

Lets face it, the F4U was a mediocre fighter only suited for slaughtering slow defenseless jap planes. In the ETO it would just have been another target for the 109s and 190s.

The 109 is the most prolific and successful fighter in history.

Bravo  sir , Bravo


Now tell us how many of those were from the Spanish civil war untill the end of fighting in europe.
Not enough man power to rotate people out ehh.
Bronk

[OttoJ]

Originally posted by Bronk
Bravo  sir , Bravo


Now tell us how many of those were from the Spanish civil war untill the end of fighting in europe.

Bronk

Erich Hartmann, the world's leading ace didn't start flying until October 1942, and scored his first of 352 kills on November 5 1942. He flew 109s exclusively.

Your point?

[tikky]

If i remember the Israeli Defence Force used the 109s in 1948.  They hated the 109 (other than the fact that it was designed for a massive Eurasia conquest and genocides of "undesirables") flight qualities.  The Israelis got used to it and its a success. They even shot down some Egyptian SPIT 5s:D

[OttoJ]

Yes the Israeli/Egyptian desert remake of the Battle of Britain was exceptionally ironic.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by tikky
If i remember the Israeli Defence Force used the 109s in 1948.  They hated the 109 (other than the fact that it was designed for a massive Eurasia conquest and genocides of "undesirables") flight qualities.  The Israelis got used to it and its a success. They even shot down some Egyptian SPIT 5s:D

Avia S-199 in Czechoslovakia using Jumo engines.

The last 109s built (Spanish) used Rolls-Royce Merlin engines.

Several 109s flew in Spain until 1965.

Flying on the Russian Front was easier than in the West. All one has to do is look at the LW's aces claims against Western a/c.

[Bruno]

Originally posted by humble
Someplace that taught basic subjects like history and geography....Duh.

So how far are the cliffs of dover from Calais....

Calais is in Germany?

[Bronk]

Thats 1 and now post the rest.
My point is most of those pilots racked up those kills because they flew from the spanish civil war to the end of the war in  
europe. That mean they were shooting down mostly obsolete aircraft. Probably biplanes.

Also you made some comment about naval crew pushing off F4Us
off the sides their carriers. While the mighty 109 saw service untill the end of the war.
Lemme fill you in on the soccer war.  The f4u and the p51 were in use .  This was in 1969. Again i ask, when was the last combat flight of a 109.



Bronk

[MiloMorai]

Bruno, Calais was situated in the lands of the Third Reich for several years so could be considered part of Germany.