Schräge-Musik for the 110

[KD303]

A Schräge-Musik equiped 110 would be an interesting edition for attacking heavy bombers. However, I suppose the 110 would have to be a NF variant (Bf 110 C/F/G) to keep things authentic.
Two MG FFs or MG 151/20s 20mm cannons mounted at an upward pointing angle (70 -80 degrees, I think) coupled with a Revi C.12/D or 16B gun sight was the thing to have if you were a German night fighter crew.

[Krusty]

Yes, but we don't have night. And the msot bombers you see these days ahve belly turrets (honestly, how often do you see Lancs anymore? It's all b24s).

Plus consider that you don't want it to fire with your main guns, and it's not a turret... How would you know when you're lined up, and how would you fire it? Make it ord? So that you have to select secondary?

Hrm.. that might work, but you still need a way to aim it.

[frank3]

coupled with a Revi C.12/D or 16B gun sight

But Im not sure if the schrage-musik will be much used, it would be rather hard to aim and fly at the same time, especially because 9 out of 10 bomber-pilots won't stay in a straight line if they see the thing below them

With a manoeuvring bomber, the aiming would be rather hard

[Krusty]

Frank, if you've got a little speed, and you dive down below a formation, you separate yourself and you give yourself more speed. The hard part is knowing when to pull up so that 1) you can actually shoot at the bombers before you're past them and 2) so that you don't ram them.

I'd use these babies a lot. I'd do the "dive under the formation" move, but instead of pulling up I'd lead a little and blast the suckers from below!!

But tha's just me

[frank3]

I thought the night-fighters would try and line up under the bomber un-noticed and fire away rather than diving under it?

[Krusty]

Well night fighters have the element of surprise. I was just explaining how I'd use it in AH, where bomber pilots are always watching you and waiting to shoot you down

[KD303]

Originally posted by Krusty
Well night fighters have the element of surprise. I was just explaining how I'd use it in AH, where bomber pilots are always watching you and waiting to shoot you down

Indeed. I have seen several interviews with German NF pilots who claimed they could have sat under a British bomber for hours without being seen, if they had wanted to. However, in AH the bomber pilot can use external views to see the enemy fighter from any angle. Also he gets a nice big red icon to help him.
As far as using upward pointing cannon in AH goes, I'd have thought that, if the Lanc pilot is working alone and operating the guns, his plane will be flying straight and level, more often the not.
Sighting would probably have to be modeled from scratch (but then I don't know much about that sort of thing), I suppose, so that when the pilot of the NF selects the forward/up view, a gun sights is included and he simply lines it up as he would in the normal forward view.
The only British heavy with ventral armament (that could shoot at a NF sitting below) that I can think of were certain Mks of the Short S.29 Stirling. The Stirling 1 series 1 had a FN25A retractable ventral turret. Another series (4 maybe) had provision for a remotely-controlled FN64A ventral turret. Later marks also had ventral turrets or at least provision for them. However, it's all academic as I don't imagine the Stirling is high on the list of potential AH planes despite the fact that it would probably be better suited to AH than the Lanc IMHO.

[Furball]

i would use them in dogfights to get a high 12 shot...

PWN!

[Furball]

Originally posted by KD303
The only British heavy with ventral armament (that could shoot at a NF sitting below) that I can think of were certain Mks of the Short S.29 Stirling. The Stirling 1 series 1 had a FN25A retractable ventral turret. Another series (4 maybe) had provision for a remotely-controlled FN64A ventral turret. Later marks also had ventral turrets or at least provision for them. However, it's all academic as I don't imagine the Stirling is high on the list of potential AH planes despite the fact that it would probably be better suited to AH than the Lanc IMHO.

Some Canadian group lancs had ventral gun.  There was a provision for it on lancasters but it was felt it wasnt needed iirc.

[KD303]

Originally posted by Furball
Some Canadian group lancs had ventral gun.  There was a provision for it on lancasters but it was felt it wasnt needed iirc.

Interesting. I didn't know that. If I did, it slipped my mind a long time ago!

[Furball]

im basing that on someone i know who served on lancs in 6 group.

Below is from http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/halifaxs.html

The majority of night fighter attacks were made stealthily from astern and below, indeed, with the advent of Schräge Musik, the inclined cannon armament system fitted to German night fighters, the majority of the attacks occurred from almost directly below, completely out of sight of the mid upper gunner. There were some aircraft fitted with belly or ventral gun positions such as the Lancaster Mk II and several versions of the Halifax, but these were not brought into widespread service although many aircraft on the production line were perfectly capable of having them installed. Since it was a simple matter to extrapolate the direction of attack from the damage done to the aircraft which managed to return after being attacked, and several engineers in Bomber Command remarked upon the attack patterns in official reports, it is a matter of conjecture how many lives would have been saved by the deletion of the traditional mid upper turret and the acceptance of ventral positions as the norm in reply to the tactics employed by the German night fighter force. In many late production aircraft the ventral position designed into the Lancaster and Halifax was taken up with the H2S ground mapping radar head.

[frank3]

Does anyone know how the nightfighters used their radar?

Did they see a dot on the screen, or actually saw the bomber's shape?

If they did see it on radar, how did they attack the bomber? (Im sure the fighterpilots couldn't see the bombers very well aswell)

[Krusty]

Frank they were guided into position with ground control radar. Among the information that GC gave them was heading, so they knew what direction the enemy was going. They would get into a trailing pursuit with adjustments from GC. Once told they were in range of their target they would use their forward radar (because they were in a trailing pursuit they are now behind the target) and on the scope they see a waveform line. The line would spike when they got a hit, I believe. Something *like* this, but not exactly so. By where the spike showed up they know to go left or right by a few degrees, and keep closing until they had visual. Once in visual (usually not til very close) they'd shoot it down normally.

I've heard reports (from brit night fighters at least) that it was an imperfect system. Sometimes the interceptor had to be directed several times, and once "in range" could not get a lock on with its own radar, and had to get another vector from GC, and try again. Sometimes it was hit or miss.

[Karnak]

The British also deployed 'Monica' tail warning radar that the German's quickly learned to home in on.  If an aircraft was using 'Monica' constantly a German nightfighter could "see" it from far outside the typical range of on board radar and it provided a far stronger, more reliable way to find British bombers.

Later, after the British figured out what the Germans were doing, they used 'Monica' equipped Mossie nightfighters to suck the German nightfighters to them, then turn off 'Monica' and play cat and mouse.

It was a very different war from the USAAF daytime operations, but just as intense in it's own way.

[frank3]

So the radar actually had to be aimed at the enemy bomber before they could get a 'spike'?