KV1 vs Panther G

[Kweassa]

It's quite hard to describe it as "slave labour", since there isn't really a concept that matches the wartime production of Soviet Russia, in capitalist Allied countries.

 The working conditions were terrible, but the Allied production lines weren't exactly too labour-friendly either. Although the harshness of working conditions were undeniably much worse in the USSR during their bad years in WW2, this can't be adequately described with the term "slave labour". Nazi Germans with Jews in their workcamps were "slave labour". USSR was not.

 It's a weird mix of terror from above + grand patriotism + obligatory reaction + fatalism. The punishments and reprimandations of not meeting production quotas were severe and inhuman, and yet, as terrible it was, the Russian people accepted it as their fate - the war wasn't just about the soldiers at the frontlines. The war was at the production lines also; either you succeed in meeting the quotas, or the country dies.

 While we tend to think that the gruesome reality of Soviet Russia would make its people loathe the system, quite contrarily, the people of Russia were generally content and very proud of their country, and often fanatically patriotic, at least in WW2.

 The warring years were, ironically, the most "democratic" years of Russia since 1905~1917, as there were no exceptions or previliges to anyone. One's status may be high or low in society, he may be a party memeber or a "nomencalatura" or not..  there was no exceptions. If someone couldn't contribute to the war, whether he is a soldier or a general, a common labourer or a high ranking Commisar, they couldn't survive.

 Everybody had to do something. The Russians accepted that, and they did what they had to do to win a war, which, should they ever lose, mean the end of everything. Hitler and co. made it pretty clear that if they won, they were gonna literally wipe everything 'Russian' off from the face of the Earth.

 If the workers were just purely driven to produce by terror, Soviet Russia would have never made it through 1942.

[Squire]

I think the front would probably be a better place than many Soviet factories.

...But I wasnt commenting on the human rights issues of the Soviet Union, just what they were able to do in WW2 re production and design. No different than reffering to the Third Reich's abilities in wartime. The morality of it all is another debate. I am certainly no great admirer of Stalin or his regime.

No Red Pom-Poms here

[Kweassa]

I think it would be fair to say that there was no seperate 'front' at all.

 Soldiers lived in hastily dug trenches in the front, the workers lived in flimsy trenches near the factories. The soldiers were killed by both enemies and their superiors, the workers were killed by their enemies and their supervising officials. The soldiers were given orders to fight and retreat would mean death, the workers were given orders to produce and missing the quota would mean death.
 
 It's kinda hard to figure the morality of it all when the war itself is immoral to begin with.

 Another fact which makes it all so complicated is that the war-time terror, did actually work. It held the Russians together. I find it hard to imagine the USSR would have survived between 1941~1942 without such use of state terror.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Another fact which makes it all so complicated is that the war-time terror, did actually work. It held the Russians together. I find it hard to imagine the USSR would have survived between 1941~1942 without such use of state terror.

Generally I agree with your previous posts, bit you overestimate importance of state terror. It's no surprise, it's a result of propaganda and films like "Enemy at the gates" with idiotic scenes when NKVD shoots attacking soldiers in the back...

About forced labour: well, in USSR it was a crime not to have a jod. That's all. People who couldn't work got smaller food rations.

Stalinism was a system extremely efficient in emergencies. It meant responsibility according to the level of work and decisions made. Also no "capitalistic economy" could withstand massive evacuation and building new industry in the East like it happened in 1941.

Noone from my family members ever told me about "state terror" during the War. And noone forced, for example, my Grandmother to work, she was 18 in 1941 and bore a first child in an evacuation train in November.

[Nosara]

So, a Panther and a KV1 line up at 700 yards, both fire ...

[Boroda]

So, a Renault FT-17 and a T-72 line up at 700 yards, both fire ...

I don't think any KV-1s were left in the troops when Panther appeared.

For 1941 KV was a great tank. One crew fought with 50 german tanks near Leningrad, and shot down 30 of them, ambushed them on the road, KV got 130 hits, returned home safely. The only damage was a commander's periscope broken, but it was replaced under fire by a machinegunner/ radio operator.

[Angus]

So a M1 and T71 line up and fire. ???

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Boroda
I don't think any KV-1s were left in the troops when Panther appeared.

For 1941 KV was a great tank. One crew fought with 50 german tanks near Leningrad, and shot down 30 of them, ambushed them on the road, KV got 130 hits, returned home safely. The only damage was a commander's periscope broken, but it was replaced under fire by a machinegunner/ radio operator.

Was not that tank a KV-2?

Last KV-1 was seen in 1944 on the Karelian front.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Nosara
So, a Panther and a KV1 line up at 700 yards, both fire ...

KV1 dies every time.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Boroda
So, a Renault FT-17 and a T-72 line up at 700 yards, both fire ...

I don't think any KV-1s were left in the troops when Panther appeared.

For 1941 KV was a great tank. One crew fought with 50 german tanks near Leningrad, and shot down 30 of them, ambushed them on the road, KV got 130 hits, returned home safely. The only damage was a commander's periscope broken, but it was replaced under fire by a machinegunner/ radio operator.

yer full of horse crap boroda.... keep reading that commie propoganda.

[LLv34_Snefens]

Is this the incident?:

"There are some accounts when a single KV-1 tank delayed whole German armies for days.
A single KV-1 made a stand near a road not far from Ostrov (Baltic States) and delayed the whole German tank army.

The battle casualties: 7 German tanks, an anti-tank battery, one 88 mm AA-gun and all it's crew, 4 halftracks "Hanomag", and 12 trucks. This tank was destroyed the next day with German 88 mm AA-Gun."

From Battlefield.ru

[Boroda]

Originally posted by LLv34_Snefens
Is this the incident?:

"There are some accounts when a single KV-1 tank delayed whole German armies for days.
A single KV-1 made a stand near a road not far from Ostrov (Baltic States) and delayed the whole German tank army.

The battle casualties: 7 German tanks, an anti-tank battery, one 88 mm AA-gun and all it's crew, 4 halftracks "Hanomag", and 12 trucks. This tank was destroyed the next day with German 88 mm AA-Gun."

From Battlefield.ru

Nope, this KV as mentioned in Suvovrov's books, the fight took place near Rassenyay.

I meant Zinoviy Kolobanov, on August 19th 1941 his KV destoyed a German tank convoy of 22 machines, KV was buried in the gound in an ambush and camouflaged. Took over 150 hits, mostly rejected by 25mm additional amour screens. Destoyed all 22 enemy tanks, spent 98 shells including all AP rounds, also destroyed several antitank guns. The fight happened on a a roads cross from Luga and Kingisepp. Here is a link in Russian with some pictures and schemes: http://www.rustrana.ru/print.php?nid=12764



Sorry for mistakes in first post, I didn't ceck with the sources. Kolobanov was a senior leutenant, company commander in 1st tank division. He had some experience, fought in Finnish war, as he said he burned in his tank three times.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Bodhi
yer full of horse crap boroda.... keep reading that commie propoganda.

Everything that doesn't describe Soviets as "barbarians on their shaggy mounts" and "asian hordes of Jewish bolsheviks" is commie propaganda, yes. It's a well known fact that ubermenschen brought freedom and peace to USSR and silly barbarians were too barbaric to understand it and spoiled a good idea. Do I understand your agenda right?

[MiloMorai]

Kolobanov did not due all the damage by himself. He had 3 other tanks in his platoon that helped. A total of 38 German vehicles were destroyed. Kolobanov is said to have rammed one of the German vehicles. (ref Zaloga)

Viktor Rezun (pen name Viktor Suvorov) has a reputation as a 'faery tale' writer.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Kolobanov did not due all the damage by himself. He had 3 other tanks in his platoon that helped. A total of 38 German vehicles were destroyed. Kolobanov is said to have rammed one of the German vehicles. (ref Zaloga)

A complete description of the fight, with quotes from Kolobanov, at the link I mentioned, says that he didn't ram a nazi tank, it was another KV from his company, it's commander was killed, 3 crew members severey wounded, and a driver, who was the only one who wasn't wounded, rammed the German tank. Other KVs from Kolobanov's company were at different places, and the convoy was destroyed by one machine...

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Viktor Rezun (pen name Viktor Suvorov) has a reputation as a 'faery tale' writer.

I know, but he's very popular here