Author Topic: Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?  (Read 9236 times)

Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #240 on: November 07, 2005, 05:37:00 PM »
I know of the PRO documents that are being made public now, mostly secret service stuff. 50 years of discretion.
But as for the order of battle or squadron strenghts and locations, ops books, and more the is no secrecy and has not been for a long time.
Johnny was still writing at the time of his death, and although the books from him that I have are older, one of them seems to be written as a teaching book of air to air tactics. Rall's book is from last year, Galland's "Ersten und die Letzten" from the fifties, (He was involved in much more writing), and so on. Point being, that it does not seem to make much difference when the work is done, - it all goes in rather good harmony.
So, what secret divulging do you expect to expose? What is your point in the relation of divulging to this thread? A great serviceman conspiracy?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #241 on: November 07, 2005, 06:12:32 PM »
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But as for the order of battle or squadron strenghts and locations, ops books, and more the is no secrecy and has not been for a long time.


You better check on that. Those are exactly the things that are classified.  The Strength Report I just ordered from the PRO was classified.

No conspiracy at all Angus.  Just the facts.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #242 on: November 07, 2005, 06:47:19 PM »
A summed up strength report from what? Secret service?
I've been there Crumpp, and seen what's on the table. I rather doubt you'll find some secret armies lurking there, especially those unknown to VIP's such as Galland. Well it's your time, and I'm all ears ;)
If you go to London make sure to have time for the PRO. It's some 45 minutes from central town. But the coolest IMHO is the photo archive of the IWM in S-London.
Best of luck ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #243 on: November 07, 2005, 06:56:21 PM »
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I've been there Crumpp, and seen what's on the table.


Then I am sure you noticed the big stamp marked "SECRET" on many of the documents, Angus.  The majority of these documents were not declassified until the mid-1970's and some where not declassified until recently.

No conspiracy, just the law.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #244 on: November 08, 2005, 12:54:51 AM »
A big batch of intel docs were declassified last year. 50 years and older.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #245 on: November 08, 2005, 04:18:15 AM »
Point proven.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #246 on: November 08, 2005, 04:26:39 AM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
So When Luftflotte V's mission turned out to be a disaster for the Luftwaffe due to the Pilot training issues, and the Luftflotte V was taken out of the fight, Dowding would have known thru Ultra decrypts, right?

Great article on the Battle of Britain:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IBO/is_4_24/ai_74582443

Your problem strikes again Crumpp.

Fighter Command C-in-C ACM Hugh Dowding did not know of its existence until October 16th 1940 > Ultra that is. By mid Oct the battle was well on its way winding down in daylight ops.


Oh and your link might be great for you but is only so, so in reality.

Better, be sure http://www.battleofbritain.net/

Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #247 on: November 08, 2005, 05:18:11 AM »
Gilbert has in his work, a lot of detailes about where and when information from Ultra and Enigma was being used. I'll peek into it today.
I remember on swift glance that Bletchley knew the rough strenght of the LW through Ultra, and perhaps even LW losses over Dunkirk. The question remains how far it was passed on.
It does not change the basic facts though that 13th group stayed (well there was rotation) and yet again 11th group bore the brunt of the fight.
If I find a moment I'll sum up the confirmed kills and sort them by group. N.B. that those are not claims but definate kills.
BTW, some of the best scoring squadrons such as the Polish, were formed amazingly late! So, I'll have to dig into Shore's squadron lists to be able to find who's who!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #248 on: November 08, 2005, 07:02:38 AM »
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Fighter Command C-in-C ACM Hugh Dowding did not know of its existence until October 16th 1940 >


Milo you clearly do not understand how intelligence agencies operate.

There is no requirement for a Commander to know the source of intelligence.  He simply receives the information from his intelligence section.

The fact that Hugh Dowding was read on to Ultra simply demonstrates an increase in Ultra's capabilities or an attempt to streamline the lines of communication.  

So your "proof" demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of government organization and their workings.

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I remember on swift glance that Bletchley knew the rough strenght of the LW through Ultra, and perhaps even LW losses over Dunkirk.


Yes it was in place and the RAF received the benefits of the intelligence it gathered.  It was able to deliver more real time actionable intelligence later on but was very viable for determining strengths, disposition, and long term intentions in mid-1940.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 07:09:10 AM by Crumpp »

Offline MiloMorai

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #249 on: November 08, 2005, 09:07:47 AM »
"Once Britain realised the value of Enigma and how important a part it could play, it was thought that only two commanders in the Royal Air Force, ACM Hugh Dowding and AVM Keith Park knew of its existence other than certain members of the War Office. In actual fact, historian Martin Gilbert has found that because messages were very slow in being deciphered, the information was often 48 hours old before it could have been handed to Fighter Command, and that Fighter Command C-in-C ACM Hugh Dowding did not know of its existence until October 16th 1940 when Dowding was added to the list of people that were made aware of Enigma's existence. In reality, most 'Ultra' decrypts were of limited value during the Battle of Britain, mainly due to the slow deciphering of the machine. The Germans changed the rotors of the machine daily which meant that each day the British had to determine which had been changed so that any codes could continue to be broken."

"So, did Enigma help Dowding on August 15th 1940 as Winterbotham stated in Bickers book. If this is true, then why didn't Enigma help Dowding when Kenley and Biggin Hill aerodromes were taken by surprise on August 18th 1940. And why didn't Enigma help Dowding when London was attacked on September 7th 1940. If they knew that an attack was to be made on London, why did Dowding ask AVM Keith Park to leave 11 Group HQ and join him in a conference at Fighter Command HQ.
On these theories, we can only be led to believe that the writings of John Ray are the more correct, which in turn means that Dowding did not have access to Enigma, and further to that, Intelligence had still not been able to efficiently interpret and decypher the German codes accurately during the time of the Battle of Britain."


Yet he did not recieve this intelligence that was so essential for the defence of GB during BoB that you claim that he did.

Offline Nashwan

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #250 on: November 08, 2005, 09:27:18 AM »
The evidence is Dowding was not recieving info from Ultra. On the 15th, when Luftflotte III mounted their raids against the NE, the commander of 13 Group, Richard Saul, was on leave, and he wasn't recalled. On the 7th September, when the Luftwaffe switched to attacking London, Park, commander 11 Group, was at the air ministry for a scheduled conference with Dowding. The controllers in 11 Group thought right up until the raid passed over London that it was about to split up and seperate groups would go for the airfields. That's why the interceptions of the raid were so patchy.

Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #251 on: November 08, 2005, 10:18:16 AM »
Crumpp:
"Milo you clearly do not understand how intelligence agencies operate.

There is no requirement for a Commander to know the source of intelligence. He simply receives the information from his intelligence section."


I am afraid you are quite wrong here. A little whiff of Enigma being eavesdropped for instance, could have lead to the Germans instantly (and very successfully) switching wheels. No ears any more then.
It was used coldly and carefully, and since the Germans had their sources as well, useful application of the gathered intelligence had to be allocated or related to some other source. So, there was a "needed" source, - something logical enough for the Germans not to get suspicious.

That carefulness was costly on the short run. But the Germans never caught the smell ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #252 on: November 08, 2005, 10:19:05 AM »
Hehe, now this post goes Le Carré style :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #253 on: November 08, 2005, 03:35:18 PM »
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I am afraid you are quite wrong here.


Angus,

My whole adult life I have been in the Military.  Much of it a Commander.  What do you do?

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In actual fact, historian Martin Gilbert has found that because messages were very slow in being deciphered, the information was often 48 hours old before it could have been handed to Fighter Command,


Messages were slow so it's value for tactical employment is limited.  However it was a useful tool for determining strategy.  

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On these theories, we can only be led to believe that the writings of John Ray are the more correct, which in turn means that Dowding did not have access to Enigma, and further to that, Intelligence had still not been able to efficiently interpret and decypher the German codes accurately during the time of the Battle of Britain."


Author's speculation and not documented fact.  

 
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I remember on swift glance that Bletchley knew the rough strenght of the LW through Ultra, and perhaps even LW losses over Dunkirk.


You can bet enigma was used.  If it was used in Dunkirk, it was used in the Battle of Britain.   Dowding did not have a "need to know" the source, only the information for much of the battle.  IMHO this was due to the speed at which the German Codes could be broken.  As this speed increased and the intelligence value became "tactically actionable" he would have required DIRLAUTH and been "read on" to ULTRA.

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A little whiff of Enigma being eavesdropped for instance, could have lead to the Germans instantly (and very successfully) switching wheels. No ears any more then.


Which is exactly why the Commander does not need to know the source.  He only "needs" to know the source if it becomes of tactical value, the collection vehicle is integrated into his command structure, or for C3 he requires DIRLAUTH.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #254 on: November 08, 2005, 04:21:48 PM »
Hehe, Crumpp:
"Angus,

My whole adult life I have been in the Military. Much of it a Commander. What do you do?"

I am a Farmer. That does not have to mean I don't qualify for something else.
It does not mean that I am deprived of common sense.
It actually means that I am an "officer", for Nobody bosses me around except the government.
It means that I have to have people under my command all the time.
My only military experience is this:
A) Hunter and shooter (as well as butcher) for some 20 years.
B) A flip with Eastwood and the U.S.M.C. for some weeks.
C) Have been in various aircraft under various circumstances :D

Anyway, you're asking "WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION MY EXPERTIZE OF MILITARY MATTERS", if I may be so humble to rephraze your "pill"

It still boils down to common sense. You can be in in the army for another 20 years for that sake, - 2+2 still remain......as 4.

or?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)