Author Topic: Furballers Vs. Toolshedders  (Read 14182 times)

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #495 on: November 12, 2005, 06:33:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ColKLink
ccuratly 100 yrds, man, common sense, or go to a range and see for yourseif your talking disperstion within 333yrds with a .50 cal, it ain't gonna be much if any
...in which case the attacking aircraft would have to be flown accurately to within about one hundredth of a degree in order to get an accurate shot at 800yds. (See my earlier diagram for the mathematical proof) There's no way in hell a plane could be flown that accurately, what with turbulence, engine vibrations, wings flexing, guns heating, recoil etc. As I learned from the other thread, dispersion isn't built in, but occurs as a result of these various factors.

As for cannon, as Lazs said earlier (much earlier!) Erich Hartmann believed it necessary to fire from point blank.  Even in AH1 I found it necessary to close to <200yds with the 30mm spud cannon. But with the Chog cannon I could score hits/kills at 600yds. :confused:

I like this thread! :D

Offline ColKLink

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« Reply #496 on: November 12, 2005, 06:34:24 AM »
B.S. :o
Live each day like it's your last, and one day, you will be right.---- rush 2112,--->" and the sheep shall inherit the earth"......

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #497 on: November 12, 2005, 07:02:44 AM »
It's not BS, and I can prove it mathematically.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #498 on: November 12, 2005, 08:34:06 AM »
No beet.... 6 or 7 years ago I said that the long (and thankfullyby all but you) forgotten WB gunnery model was hosed because you couldn't shoot down planes from any range.  they just soaked up rounds.  In that context I said that if you fired a 2 sec burst into a plane at close range (mostly hits) it should do some real damage.

but... this thread..  beet you seem to be saying that even tho WWII pilots got hits at 1000 or more yards... we shouldn't be able to?  Even tho we try a lot more often and don't have barrels that melt down or guns that have worn mounts or are out of adjustment for convergence?

You are just mad because.... years ago.... when you left here...  guys would occasionaly ping you as you were running... er.... "extending" after a brave B&Z pass on a bored to slumber pilot...  at... what you seen as 1000 yards and was probly 600-800 yards at your predictable (save that e) no manuver fly straight and in a slight climb..  shooting a moving target from the ground woulda been ten times harder than shooting you.

As for calling the Navy guy a liar... well...I guess I would have to hear his defenition of "effective"   If he is saying a 50 doesn't have enough energy or accuracy out past 333 yards to be "effective" he is wrong.

but... how does that equate with a fluff box of three planes that would take a 30 man crew being piloted by one guy with a mouse?  You never did answere that... so.... Pings at 1000 yards every couple thousand rounds or so or 1 mouse weilder controlling 3 B17's  which is more "realistic" to you?  

simple question... how bout an answer?

lazs
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Offline mars01

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« Reply #499 on: November 12, 2005, 04:50:04 PM »
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You are just mad because.... years ago.... when you left here... guys would occasionaly ping you as you were running... er.... "extending" after a brave B&Z pass on a bored to slumber pilot... at... what you seen as 1000 yards and was probly 600-800 yards at your predictable (save that e) no manuver fly straight and in a slight climb.. shooting a moving target from the ground woulda been ten times harder than shooting you.

.[SIZE=8]BINGO![/SIZE]

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #500 on: November 12, 2005, 05:46:13 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
but... this thread..  beet you seem to be saying that even tho WWII pilots got hits at 1000 or more yards... we shouldn't be able to?  Even tho we try a lot more often and don't have barrels that melt down or guns that have worn mounts or are out of adjustment for convergence?
I've said all along that I don't doubt that the occasional hit was possible at 800yds. But I'm saying that these would be extremely lucky hits, and I'm saying that you could not get enough of them to bear upon the target at that range to do serious structural damage.
Quote
You are just mad because.... years ago.... when you left here... guys would occasionaly ping you as you were running... er.... "extending" after a brave B&Z pass on a bored to slumber pilot... at... what you seen as 1000 yards and was probly 600-800 yards at your predictable (save that e) no manuver fly straight and in a slight climb.. shooting a moving target from the ground woulda been ten times harder than shooting you.
I'm saying that those golden shots from 800yds were an almost daily occurrence, and the effect was out of all proportion to what would have happened in RL. I also felt that the FM which allowed the noobs to pull into helicopter mode and spray vertically upwards in the hope of a golden BB was happening on a daily basis.  Apprently HTC agreed with me because the gunnery model was completely changed along with the FM which put a stop to that helicopter crap. But of course, there were a lot of quitters and whiners, and I quit too but my own reasons - nothing to do with the GM or FM, which I always considered to have been huge improvements.

I'm also saying that it was BS even when *I* was the attacking plane and shot a guy down at 800yds, ie. 800 on my FE - total BS - I did it as a test and even apologised to my victim afterwards for pulling such a gamey stunt.


What I find funny about this thread is the way that some people are using two opposing theses to support the same argument. I have already proved that to land hits on the wings of a typical fighter  plane from its dead 6 position at 800yds assuming ZERO dispersion would require accuracy of pitch to within ~0.012°. To land hits on the tail/fuselage would require accuracy of pitch to within not much more than that - well under 0.25°. Few people would believe that an aircraft could be flown that accurately (turbulence/vibration/wing flexing/recoil etc.) and I think even you would accept that bullet dispersion occurred, increasing the chances of hits. But then  you switch the the other thesis to support the viability of opening fire at such a huge range by quoting articles about the accuracy of the .50 cal in an entirely different mode of deployment - a solid, stable, stationary platform on the ground. These days I'm sure the gunsight/other aiming mechanism is a lot more accurate than anything available in WW2. To pretend that a WW2 airman could aim his guns as accurately as a modern day  ground based M2 setup is just silly.

At one time, you were interested in the realism aspect of these games. You even announced to us all that to get hits with cannon you had to be getting to point blank range, and that Erich Hartmann even had the film to prove it.

But now I see that you have lost all interest in reality - you don't want your favourite WW2 sim to be anything like WW2 and have said so in this thread. So for you, the transition from WW2 sim realist to armchair gamer dork is complete. But don't feel bad - you have numerous like-minded friends!

:rofl

Offline DipStick

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« Reply #501 on: November 12, 2005, 05:54:23 PM »
Why not just go play IL2 or whatever "game" you play now that you "think" is more "real" and stfu. Nobody who actually "plays" "this" "game" gives a crap what you have to say. Capisca?

I actually took everybody off of ignore for awhile. Looks like you're gonna be the first back on...... again.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #502 on: November 12, 2005, 06:32:15 PM »
funny that - because after 10 pages of this thread, I'm still getting replies. :D

Offline AutoPilot

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« Reply #503 on: November 12, 2005, 09:22:27 PM »
Go beetle ,go beetle

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #504 on: November 13, 2005, 08:32:19 AM »
wow... after all this I am still getting replies from beet who doesn't even play the game..

I never said (even six years ago) that you should have to get in close to get hits with cannon... As I recall... I said that if you ARE in close then cannon hits (or .30 machine guns hits)should be pretty leathal... big difference.   the guns did no damage in that version.. it got fixed.   In another version I said that the german early cannon should not have been so powerful as the later ones sooo.. what's your point..

and... you claim that 800 yard pings here are "common" and were not in WWII... did you even think that one through?  even a little bit?   How many rounds did WWII pilots fire in a day at planes?  How many do we fire?  simple to see huh?

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Offline nazgulAX

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« Reply #505 on: November 13, 2005, 09:09:32 AM »
505 posts in 1 thread?....Is this a record?

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #506 on: November 13, 2005, 09:40:06 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
I never said (even six years ago) that you should have to get in close to get hits with cannon...  
You said
Quote
I have allways gotten in close to kill and even ol' 350 kill Eric felt cannon only worked at point blank range and he had the film to prove it.
And others including yourself have tried to use two mutually exclusive theses to support the same argument. It's an Either/Or situation.

EITHER... rounds from WW2 aircraft guns were subject to dispersion, giving the pilot a better chance of scoring hits at reasonable ranges, but dispersing rounds over too large an area at longer ranges for all but a few lucky pings to find their target...

OR... there was "no dispersion", the .50 cal was as accurate as a modern day M2, in which case the planes using it would face the impossible task of having to be flown to an accuracy of small fractions of a degree to land hits on target.

You can't have it both ways.

Of course, in GDU there is no turbulence, no wind, no night, no weather, no clouds, no oil on the windscreen... and bullets the size of marrows. And you take every opportunity you get to pan the toolshedders for seeking some form of realism, ie organisation/buff attack/capture as "boring" because it's too much like WW2, which is of course what AH is all about. So it's funny that you should cite your motivation to furball as to find out how various planes would have fared against eachother, when you've pretty much redefined every attribute of the terms of engagement in accordance with GDU ideals.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #507 on: November 13, 2005, 10:05:04 AM »
sheesh.. you really can't read?  nothing in what I said about dispertion even 6 years ago in a long forgoten and lousy gunnery model... give it up... I said essentialy that up close the cannon should have enough power to penetrate and kill.  I stick by that.

and... please don't tell me about AH... you have no idea because...

you don't play.

you don't need to play to answer the question I asked 4 times tho...

is it gamey or not for one guy to control 3 bombers with what should be a 30 man crew by himself using a mouse?

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #508 on: November 13, 2005, 10:15:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
sheesh.. you really can't read?  nothing in what I said about dispertion even 6 years ago in a long forgoten and lousy gunnery model... give it up... I said essentialy that up close the cannon should have enough power to penetrate and kill.  I stick by that.

and... please don't tell me about AH... you have no idea because...

you don't play.

you don't need to play to answer the question I asked 4 times tho...

is it gamey or not for one guy to control 3 bombers with what should be a 30 man crew by himself using a mouse?

lazs
Can't YOU read? We were discussing RL gunnery, not a game. You yourself were not commenting on the GM of any game in that quoted text. You were talking about the German ace Erich Hartmann who scored 352 victories in WW2.

One guy to control 3 buffs? Of course that's not how it was in WW2, and it usually goes against the gamer. He has to fly all three planes and jump around to the different guns on different planes. It's hard to do. You would know that, had you ever tried it. But unless things have changed, it's possible for the pilot to invite other players to join his plane in the various gunner positions. My squad used to do that every Sunday evening during squad night.

If it's just one guy, it's much easier to shoot him down. You would know this were you to try it, instead of coming to the BBS to whine about buffs whenever you've failed to stop them from killing your FH, which seems to happen quite often.

Offline DipStick

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« Reply #509 on: November 13, 2005, 10:41:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
One guy to control 3 buffs?................He has to fly all three planes and jump around to the different guns on different planes................But unless things have changed, it's possible for the pilot to invite other players to join his plane in the various gunner positions. My squad used to do that every Sunday evening during squad night.

If it's just one guy, it's much easier to shoot him down. You would know this were you to try it, instead of coming to the BBS to whine about buffs whenever you've failed to stop them from killing your FH, which seems to happen quite often.

This is yet ANOTHER definitive post that shows you are talking out your arse.