"Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran

[ASTAC]

Originally posted by SkyWolf
Israel is not to blame for most of the "silliness" IMNSHO. For the most part they'd be fine if left alone.

In an area contested so much over history, you can't just take it away from one people and expect them to be quiet about it.

Remember Israel hadn't existed for a long time prior to 1948, and wasn't in Jewish hands...The UN sorta just said here take this land...sorta a bad deal for those already living there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not siding with the Palestinians/arabs...just looking from another point of view. Obviously at one point in history the arabs forced most of the Jews out.

[Seagoon]

Hello Astac,

Originally posted by ASTAC
Good..let em fight it out..world would be better off with both sides gone I think. Not that I don't like Jews, but I think the world in general has grown really tired of the silliness of both sides. So let Iran get nukes and make the first move..the middle east will self destruct and we can come in after and get the OIL:D

Silliness of both sides? Here's the situation - First the overview, in Islamic law and theology, which are essentially coexstensive, once a nation becomes Islamic, it becomes part of the Dar-El-Islam and may never again return to it's prior status as part of the Dar-El-Harb. Additionally neither this state, nor its Muslim inhabitants may legally be ruled by Non-Muslims. It is a religious duty therefore of all Muslims living in such a state to overthrow the infidel (Kufr) government and replace it with a Muslim government which rules according to Sharia, or as Muhammad succinctly put it: "Allah will not allow the Disbelievers to have a way (an authority) over the Believers "                                                                [TMQ 4:141]

Or as the English language version of a helpful Sunni book published by hizb-ut-tahrir puts it:

Re-establishing the Islamic State, therefore, is a duty upon all the Muslims because this has been confirmed by the Sunnah and the general consensus of the Sahabah. Because the Muslims have submitted to the influence of Kufr over their land and the rules of Kufr are implemented on them, their homeland, which in the past had been an Islamic homeland, has become a Kufr homeland; in other words their citizenship has become non-Islamic even though their land is Islamic. It is obligatory upon them to live in an Islamic homeland and to have an Islamic citizenship, yet they cannot achieve this unless they establish an Islamic State. Thus the Muslims would remain sinful until they began to work towards re-establishing the Islamic State so that they could give their bay’ah to a Khaleefah who would implement Islam and carry its Message to the world.

Therefore, because Palestine became Muslim when the Seljuk Turks defeated the Byzantines in 1071 (Palestine was nominally Christian before it was Muslim) it is now forever part of the Dar-El-Islam and can never legally be ruled by Kufr such as Jews. Therefore, there are ultimately no "half-measures" possible here. The only long term solution that will satisfy the Palestinians and the Islamic world in general is the elimination of the Kufr state, Israel and the re-establishment of an Islamic state in the region. The existence of Israel is simply unnacceptable.

That's crazy you say? Well friends, that really is the Arabic worldview. They happen to think your worldview based on politics and materialism is equally crazy.

- SEAGOON

[lasersailor184]

Remember Israel hadn't existed for a long time prior to 1948, and wasn't in Jewish hands...The UN sorta just said here take this land...sorta a bad deal for those already living there.

It wasn't palestinian lands, if that's what you're getting at.

[ASTAC]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
It wasn't palestinian lands, if that's what you're getting at.

No..but it wasn't jewish either.

[john9001]

"""Allah will not allow the Disbelievers to have a way (an authority) over the Believers " [TMQ 4:141]""

then why do muslims live in the US to be under control of the evil infidles?

a muslim friend of mine said to me once, and i quote"oh john, i'm not that kind of muslim, i eat pork and drink beer just like you".

i guess there are muslims and then there are "muslims" just like there are christians and there are "christians"

[lasersailor184]

There are wierd passages in the Bible also.  But those with common sense just discredit them to begin with.

However, a lot of people in the middle east don't know any better.  They are raised from the beginning to believe word for word.  It's not their fault though.



Astac, it really was Jewish Land.  It always had been.  Jews had lived there long before Islam even existed.

[Gunslinger]

[Nashwan]

Astac, it really was Jewish Land. It always had been. Jews had lived there long before Islam even existed.

Jews had ceased to be a majority many centuries earlier.

The problem is, though, that many Arabs live there as well. For most of those Arabs, they live there under Israeli military occupation, subject to Israeli military law, and subject to discrimination policies far more severe than apartheid.

[lasersailor184]

Bull****.

[Seagoon]

Hi John,

Originally posted by john9001
"""Allah will not allow the Disbelievers to have a way (an authority) over the Believers " [TMQ 4:141]""

then why do muslims live in the US to be under control of the evil infidles?

a muslim friend of mine said to me once, and i quote"oh john, i'm not that kind of muslim, i eat pork and drink beer just like you".

i guess there are muslims and then there are "muslims" just like there are christians and there are "christians"

John it is certainly true that there are people like your friend, Muslims who come to the USA and assimilate into American society and gradually lose their religious identity. However, your friend is certainly not the norm worldwide.

Even here in the USA, if you inquired at the majority of Masjids (Mosques), "Is a man who claims to be a Muslim but eats pork and drinks beer (and probably fails to pray 3 times a day), really a Muslim?" The answer you would get is an emphatic "NO! Such a man is an apostate." because no legitimate interpretation of the Quran and Hadiths can allow for this behavior, and in Islam, a man's faithfulness is defined by the extent of his "surrender" to the teachings of the Prophet. How fully are you observing the Pillars of Islam? Certainly such behavior, if pursued openly, would be considered scandalous in nations like Iran.

But to a certain extent, the above is a digression. While there are some Muslims who are absorbed into the surrounding Kufr culture, the actual progress of Islam throughout the world, especially in Africa and Europe is exactly the reverse, the culture that Muslims enter into is what is to be assimilated. One sees this in the Islamcization of Northern Nigeria, and the ongoing attempts to implement Shariah law in Muslim communities in places like Holland, France, and even Canada. The general rule is to implement Shariah in the Muslim community, stating it will only be for Muslims, and then as the Muslim population increases, insisting that everyone observe it (Women must wear Hajibs, no blasphemous speech) etc. until you create a situation were a Dutch filmaker can be killed by an ordinary Morrocan immigrant for making a film about the suppression of women in Islamic society or lawmakers have to live under 24hr protection merely for making comments critical of the ongoing Islamicization process. On the other hand, in areas where Islam has been in control, the fight is to reestablish Shariah, and it is even more urgent, hence the willingness of young Muslims to martyr themselves in the hopes of removing the Kufr presence.

Israel is, as Gunslingers map ironically points out, an eyesore to all faithful Muslims, a place were the Kufr rule right in the midst of the Dar-El-Islam. It is if anything worse than the presence of Infidel soldiers on the sacred Arabian peninsula.

Until we start actually beginning to accept their worldview and way of thinking, rather than pretending or wishing they think the way we do, we will never be able to acurrately assess or respond to Islam. The fact that their largest international organizations are all explicitly religious and assert the fundamentals of Islam as part of their charters should have been at least a clue. For instance, the following is from the CHARTER of the largest of them, the Organization of Islamic States or OIC which has 55 member states and works directly with the UN:

to coordinate efforts for the safeguarding of the Holy Places and support of the struggle of the people of Palestine, to help them regain their rights and liberate their land;

There simply is no direct Western parallel, and that is one of the reasons we don't understand them...

- SEAGOON

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Suave
"Isreal must be wiped off the map"
Damn Isreal! Why can't they at least try to meet these guys half way?

Exactly where is the middle ground here in the iranian position for Isreal to meet? Where is the half way point in "wiping this blot from the arab world"??

I am confused here.

[Nashwan]

Gunslinger, whilst your map tells one part of the story, it doesn't tell another part:



That could also be subtitled End the occupation of Muslim lands.

It's the daily story for millions of Palestinians, having to negotiate an Israeli roadblock. Because whilst only a tiny proportion of "muslim lands" are occupied by Israel, millions of Palestinians live their lives under a harsh Israeli military occupation.

Don't they matter? Do they deserve to live in misery so the settlers can live in subsidised luxury? Does the kid in the photo deserve to be frightened by the soldier, as he clearly is?

[SkyWolf]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Jews had ceased to be a majority many centuries earlier.

I'm unsure of the relevance of this statement. Any minority should be discounted?


The problem is, though, that many Arabs live there as well. For most of those Arabs, they live there under Israeli military occupation, subject to Israeli military law, and subject to discrimination policies far more severe than apartheid.

So they live in Israel and have to obey Israeli law? Imagine that. Maybe they should go to an Arab Country and work there...although I'm told the job market for suicide bombers in other Arab Countries isn't exploding like it is in Israel.
Maybe Israel should just boot them all out, lock the door, put up a few more barriers, and then every few years kick the crap out of any Arab State that attacks or threatens to attack them....starting with Iran. My money's on the Israelis.

[Pooh21]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Gunslinger, whilst your map tells one part of the story, it doesn't tell another part:



That could also be subtitled End the occupation of Muslim lands.

It's the daily story for millions of Palestinians, having to negotiate an Israeli roadblock. Because whilst only a tiny proportion of "muslim lands" are occupied by Israel, millions of Palestinians live their lives under a harsh Israeli military occupation.

Don't they matter? Do they deserve to live in misery so the settlers can live in subsidised luxury? Does the kid in the photo deserve to be frightened by the soldier, as he clearly is?

Maybe if his Poppa and his friends stop wearing Semtex vests, he wouldnt have to be scared so much? Then there would also be less roadblocks.

[Nashwan]

Bull****

The Jews were expelled by the Romans, for a rebellion against Roman military rule. From the Israeli government's ministry of foreign affairs:

"By the end of the 4th century, following Emperor Constantine's adoption of Christianity (313) and the founding of the Byzantine Empire, the Land of Israel had become a predominantly Christian country. Churches were built on Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Galilee, and monasteries were established in many parts of the country.

Jews were deprived of their former relative autonomy, as well as of their right to hold public positions, and were forbidden to enter Jerusalem except on one day of the year (Tisha b'Av - ninth of Av) to mourn the destruction of the Temple.

The Persian invasion of 614 was aided by the Jews, who were inspired by messianic hopes of deliverance. In gratitude for their help, they were granted the administration of Jerusalem, an interlude which lasted about three years. Subsequently, the Byzantine army regained the city (629) and again expelled its Jewish inhabitants."

"The Arab conquest of the Land came four years after the death of the prophet Muhammad (632) and lasted more than four centuries, with caliphs ruling first from Damascus, then from Baghdad and Egypt.

At the outset, Jewish settlement in Jerusalem resumed, and the Jewish community was granted the customary status of protected non-Muslims, which safeguarded their lives, property and freedom of worship in return for payment of special poll and land taxes.

However, subsequent restrictions against non-Muslims (717) affected the Jews' public conduct as well as their religious observances and legal status. The imposition of heavy taxes on agricultural land compelled many to move from rural areas to towns, where their circumstances hardly improved, while increasing social and economic discrimination forced others to leave the country.

By the end of the 11th century, the Jewish community in the Land had diminished considerably and had lost some of its organizational and religious cohesiveness."

The area didn't have a Jewish majority again until some time after the 1948 war.

The first modern census was undertaken by the british in 1922, which found:

The census results were:--

Moslems ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 590,890
Jews ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 83,794
Christians ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 73,024
Druzes ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 7,028
Samaritans ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 163
Bahais ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 265
Metawallis ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 156
Hindoos ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 1,454
Sikhs ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 408
_______

Total ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 757,182