"Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran

[SkyWolf]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Gunslinger, whilst your map tells one part of the story, it doesn't tell another part:





Don't they matter? Do they deserve to live in misery so the settlers can live in subsidised luxury? Does the kid in the photo deserve to be frightened by the soldier, as he clearly is?

In this photo the soldier does not appear to be actually pointing the weapon at the child? There is no telling what is actually going on in the photo and nothing to verify it's authenticity.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Gunslinger, whilst your map tells one part of the story, it doesn't tell another part:

It doesn't show that most of those countries have an irrational hatred for Isreal. It also doesn't convey that most of those countries are oppressive throwbacks to the 12th century.

The soldier has his gun more pointed towards those bags. I wonder if it's at all possible that sometimes Palestinians carry bombs around.

Israel has one tenth of one percent of the land in the MIddle East, and the Arabs want to wipe them out. Israel is doing what it needs to do to survive, and I think it's great.

Israel is a modern, civilized country who produces great scientists, philosophers, inventers, high tech industry and inventions, Nobel award winners and more. I have all the admiration and respect for that country that I have for my own. I can't even begin to say any of that about any of those other countries.

[Nashwan]

Jews had ceased to be a majority many centuries earlier.

I'm unsure of the relevance of this statement. Any minority should be discounted?

No, not at all. Simply correcting a factualy incorrect statement, and one which implies the area "should" be Jewish because it's always been Jewish owned.

So they live in Israel and have to obey Israeli law?

No, they don't live in Israel. If they did, they'd be entitled to citizenship.

They live in the West Bank, which even Israel does not claim is part of Israel. Israel claims it's "disputed", which Israel uses as an excuse to control and exploit the land, without having to give rights to the Palestinians who live on it.

Maybe they should go to an Arab Country and work there

Or maybe they should be allowed to live in their homes with the same rights as if they'd been born as Jews, and not Arabs?

Maybe Israel should just boot them all out, lock the door, put up a few more barriers,

Yes, because ethnic cleansing is always good. Of course, we went to war with Serbia when they tried it, but we can't be expected to apply the same standards everywhere.

and then every few years kick the crap out of any Arab State that attacks or threatens to attack them....starting with Iran. My money's on the Israelis.

My money's on Iran aquiring nuclear weapons in the next few years, and then both sides better start taking peace more seriously, if they know what's good for them.

Maybe if his Poppa and his friends stop wearing Semtex vests, he wouldnt have to be scared so much? Then there would also be less roadblocks.

The roadblocks preceeded the semtex vests. From today's Ha'aretz (Ha'aretz is one of Israel's leading newspapers):

"The Israeli policy of preventing freedom of movement for all the Palestinians and granting it, as a privilege, to a few began in 1991 (long before the suicide terror attacks). Israel has always known how to present this policy as a security "response." However, this policy combines well with the Israeli plan to dismember the Palestinian territory that international resolutions have intended for a Palestinian state, i.e., the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, on the borders of June 4, 1967. The Israeli plan as it has been implemented since 1994 is effectively to cut off Gaza from the West Bank and allow the Palestinians in the West Bank to live in between the expanding Jewish settlement blocs, in a few enclaves, between which the transportation connection is subject to Israel's mercies."

[Seagoon]

Nashwan,

I was tempted to post some graphic pictures of children, infants, and school teachers killed in a recent bus bombing in Israel, but what - aside from further inflaming the debate - would that solve?

Instead, I'd ask you to give me a few answers to relevant questions.

What solution, other than the "liberation of Palestine," the end of Kufr rule, and the implementation of an explicitly Islamic government, would Muslims be happy with regarding Israel? What solution "in-between" is there?

Israelis control the movements of and aggressively police the Palestinians, but they have never simply attempted to massacre them. What, on the other hand, do you think would happen to Jews in the event of an Islamic takeover? Would they be safe to remain in the "New Palestinian State"?

Given that Israel grants Muslims living under Israeli government full religious freedom, but that none of the Arab nations in the 10/40 window allow non-Muslims to freely practice or promote their religion, do you believe that Jews would be accorded the same full freedom of religion in this new state - especially when such freedom goes directly against Shariah law?

What benefit would the international community gain from the destruction of Israel? Will the ongoing assimilation of Europe end? Will Arabs suddenly love the West? Will terrorism, aimed at removing the Kufr presence in the middle east decrease or expand? Will our ability to combat it be heightened or decreased by the elimination of the Mossad and the IDF? Will terrorist groups allied with the Muslim Brotherhood like Hamas and Islamic Jihad disband? Will Muslims respect a force they defeated in a war of attrition?

Do you really believe that the best solution to "Bad" is "Worse"?

- SEAGOON

[soda72]

Originally posted by Gunslinger

[Tarmac]

Originally posted by SkyWolf
In this photo the soldier does not appear to be actually pointing the weapon at the child? There is no telling what is actually going on in the photo and nothing to verify it's authenticity.

Quit with your crazy thinking.  You're not supposed to pay that much attention, so you feel the outrage the photo editor wants you to feel.  The edited-out guy lying on the ground with a bulky coat, wires hanging out, and a gun in his belt is irrelevant.  There's a kid, and he's by a mean Jew with a gun!  Teh horrar!

[Nashwan]

In this photo the soldier does not appear to be actually pointing the weapon at the child? There is no telling what is actually going on in the photo and nothing to verify it's authenticity.

I don't think the soldier is pointing the gun at the child. That's not the point of the photo. The photo is merely an illustration of the occupation. I could have chosen a more graphic one, like a dead child, but it's not appropriate.

[Ripsnort]

Nice website where you got that picture Nashwan.
http://www.arena.org.nz/
Very similar to our Anarchists websites I've seen.

Nashwan, serious question, do you think photos like this that portray a soldier pointing a rifle at a child (which he is not, he's checking his rifle) tend to sway young minds into a fury and such photos have serious political motives behind them in order to persuade younger people to act?

[lazs2]

nashwan... what polices worse than apartheid are these poor arabs living under?

I think you are full of it.  

sky... generalize?  sure.... I'm generalizing.... I generalize that most gang members here are scum and that most jews here are worthless socialists compared to those jews...

My "ignorance" won't get me into too many mistakes on either generalization tho.... they are pretty accurate generalizations...  good enough.

lazs

[SkyWolf]

Originally posted by Nashwan

They live in the West Bank, which even Israel does not claim is part of Israel. Israel claims it's "disputed", which Israel uses as an excuse to control and exploit the land, without having to give rights to the Palestinians who live on it.

My apologies. I meant travel to and work in Israel.



Or maybe they should be allowed to live in their homes with the same rights as if they'd been born as Jews, and not Arabs?


Maybe in a perfect world where no one wore bombs.


Yes, because ethnic cleansing is always good. Of course, we went to war with Serbia when they tried it, but we can't be expected to apply the same standards everywhere.


I never said anything about ethnic cleansing. That was a ridiculously pompous statement. I was actually considering some of your other arguments until you pulled that little jewel out of your keester. Belch on... oh he of little credibility. Wasn't Nashwan a race horse? I now know which end you are.

My money's on Iran aquiring nuclear weapons in the next few years, and then both sides better start taking peace more seriously, if they know what's good for them.

My Money is on the Israelis removing Iran's ability to that within the next few months. And I'm right behind them. I don't know why we didn't Pave Iran back in the 70's.



"The Israeli policy Israel's mercies."

Sounds like an Editorial or an opinion piece? I've only read the online version a few times and saw nothing like that. I stopped reading it after I discovered they have a tendancy to play fast and loose with the facts...especially between the English and Hebrew versions. It's not "the" Leading Hebrew Publication.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Nashwan
It's the daily story for millions of Palestinians, having to negotiate an Israeli roadblock. Because whilst only a tiny proportion of "muslim lands" are occupied by Israel, millions of Palestinians live their lives under a harsh Israeli military occupation.  

maybe that is because they are to busy trying to kill the jews thanto create a country for themselves where they could work and be productive Palestines instead of having to go into Israel for jobs as the biggest "Pal industry" is bombing making...

if the mexicans became suicide bombers, the US would be pointing guns at every strawberry picker too, and if they didn't, there would be an uproar as to why not

some more of your pals at "work" nashwan:
Suicide bomber kills 5 in Israel
looks like this one got his five a day limit .. why don't you give him a big high five!

[SkyWolf]

Originally posted by Nashwan
I don't think the soldier is pointing the gun at the child. That's not the point of the photo. The photo is merely an illustration of the occupation. I could have chosen a more graphic one, like a dead child, but it's not appropriate.

That's nice. Your photo shows nothing about occupation. It is only meant to incite and that's why it's posted on a sweetheart-bag site like Arena. God you are a pompous, holier than thou, windbag. I have to stop now. You have beaten me with your asinine responses.

You have convinced me however.... we should just pave that festering cesspool known as the Middle East, put up a big gas station, and let the Israeli's run the pump.

[lazs2]

I vote we give iraq to the isralelies...  Let some civilized people run it for a while.

lazs

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Gunslinger, whilst your map tells one part of the story, it doesn't tell another part:



That could also be subtitled End the occupation of Muslim lands.

It's the daily story for millions of Palestinians, having to negotiate an Israeli roadblock. Because whilst only a tiny proportion of "muslim lands" are occupied by Israel, millions of Palestinians live their lives under a harsh Israeli military occupation.

Don't they matter? Do they deserve to live in misery so the settlers can live in subsidised luxury? Does the kid in the photo deserve to be frightened by the soldier, as he clearly is?

Nashwan while your photo doesn't show anything at all about the situation.  I'll feel sorry for the palestinians the day they stop advocating the murdering and killing of innocents.  

If my neighbor had a dog that kept attacking my kids and he refused to do anything about you'd bet I'd march my happy bellybutton on his property and shoot it myself.

[Nashwan]

I was tempted to post some graphic pictures of children, infants, and school teachers killed in a recent bus bombing in Israel, but what - aside from further inflaming the debate - would that solve?

Nothing, that's why I didn't post a graphic picture. Whilst doing a quick Goole image search to find that one, I found another showing a 16 year old Palestinian boy, shot dead by the IDF, with an IDF soldier standing over the body, pointing and laughing. But why inflame the debate?

We could still go down that route if you want. God knows there's enough material out there for both of us. I'm sure Skuzzy would lock it pretty quickly, but I'm also sure I'd be pretty sick after only a couple of posts.

What solution, other than the "liberation of Palestine," the end of Kufr rule, and the implementation of an explicitly Islamic government, would Muslims be happy with regarding Israel? What solution "in-between" is there?

An end to the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem.

Something like, say, The Geneva Accord (unnofical treaty negotiated between Yossi Beilin and Yasser Rabbo)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=351461

Or the Saudi peace plan:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1844214.stm

Or the roadmap:
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm

Or what about the plan Amos Malka, then head of Israeli military intelligence, advised Ehud Barak that Arafat would accept at Camp David:

"We assumed that it is possible to reach an agreement with Arafat under the following conditions: a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital and sovereignty on the Temple Mount; 97 percent of the West Bank plus exchanges of territory in the ratio of 1:1 with respect to the remaining territory; some kind of formula that includes the acknowledgement of Israel's responsibility for the refugee problem and a willingness to accept 20,000-30,000 refugees. All along the way ... it was MI's assessment that he had to get some kind of statement that would not depict him as having relinquished this, but would be prepared for a very limited implementation.""
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=%20437895&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Israelis control the movements of and aggressively police the Palestinians, but they have never simply attempted to massacre them. What, on the other hand, do you think would happen to Jews in the event of an Islamic takeover? Would they be safe to remain in the "New Palestinian State"?

I wouldn't think so now. The last 60 years have created a great deal of bitterness amongst the Palestinians.

But then again, the suggestion that Rabin might evacuate the Jewish settlement of Hebron saw Baruch Goldstein shoot dead 29 Arabs, and the recent evacuation of the Gaza settlements saw 2 Jewish terrorists kill 7 Palestinians.  And being British in Palestine in the 40s wasn't exactly safe, because Jewish terrorists didn't like the immigration policy.

Given that Israel grants Muslims living under Israeli government full religious freedom, but that none of the Arab nations in the 10/40 window allow non-Muslims to freely practice or promote their religion, do you believe that Jews would be accorded the same full freedom of religion in this new state - especially when such freedom goes directly against Shariah law?

Prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, hundreds of thousands of Jews did live the Arab countries, and seem to have been able to practice their religion.

What benefit would the international community gain from the destruction of Israel?

A reduction in terrorism, I'd have thought. I don't know anyone in the international community who's advocating that, though. Or on this board, either.

Will the ongoing assimilation of Europe end?

You mean will European governments stop importing Muslims to make up for their low birth rates? No. Their welfare states will collapse without immigration, because their tax policies work against having children.

Will terrorism, aimed at removing the Kufr presence in the middle east decrease or expand?

Decrease. Events in Israel/Palestine are a very good recruiting tool.

Will our ability to combat it be heightened or decreased by the elimination of the Mossad and the IDF?

Little change. Mossad and the IDF work very much for Israel. Their intelligence on Iraq, for example, didn't prove very accurate.

Western governments are more focused on Al Qaeda, and they have no practical presence in Israel/Palestine.

Will terrorist groups allied with the Muslim Brotherhood like Hamas and Islamic Jihad disband?

I should think Hamas would be preoccupied with the internal power struggle amongst the Palestinians.

But their support base, the poor of Gaza who want to fight back against the Israelis, aren't going to be very enthused to go to other parts of the world to start a new fight.

Will Muslims respect a force they defeated in a war of attrition?

Yes and no. Hamas have certainly gained hugely from having driven Israel out of Gaza. But Hezbollah have respected Israeli military might since they drove them out of Lebanon.

Do you really believe that the best solution to "Bad" is "Worse"?

No. I believe the best solution to "bad" is "better". Unlike many, I don't think we should stick with "bad" until we can get "best".

Pulling out of the West Bank would make the situation better. Not perfect, but much better than now. Just as pulling out of Lebanon made the situation much better.

Just to comment on one of your earlier points:

Therefore, because Palestine became Muslim when the Seljuk Turks defeated the Byzantines in 1071 (Palestine was nominally Christian before it was Muslim) it is now forever part of the Dar-El-Islam and can never legally be ruled by Kufr such as Jews. Therefore, there are ultimately no "half-measures" possible here. The only long term solution that will satisfy the Palestinians and the Islamic world in general is the elimination of the Kufr state, Israel and the re-establishment of an Islamic state in the region. The existence of Israel is simply unnacceptable.

That's crazy you say? Well friends, that really is the Arabic worldview. They happen to think your worldview based on politics and materialism is equally crazy.

Spain? Became Muslim under the Moors. So there can be no peace until Spain is again a Muslim country? Forgive me, but I don't see Spanish Christianity being a major problem amongst the Arabs? Or is that why Morocco keeps asking for Ceuta and Mellila? Are they just the first step to demanding Madrid?