Author Topic: "Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran  (Read 5150 times)

Offline Seagoon

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Part 2 - Where Nashwan is Historically Not Correct
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2005, 04:55:32 PM »
Hello again Nashwan,

When you stated this,

Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan

Spain? Became Muslim under the Moors. So there can be no peace until Spain is again a Muslim country? Forgive me, but I don't see Spanish Christianity being a major problem amongst the Arabs? Or is that why Morocco keeps asking for Ceuta and Mellila? Are they just the first step to demanding Madrid?


Then you obviously haven't been reading Islamic Websites, or many of the Islamic works written since the end of the colonial era and the beginning of what Muslim scholars regard as the present "revival" of Islam. Yes, they plan on reabsorbing Andalusia, this is a long term goal, but one which Muslims have been dreaming of since 1492.

The following article, for instance, was published in the Toronto Star a little while ago (I'll have to split it into 2 parts):

Andalusia's connection
One year after the Madrid bombings, calls for made-in-Spain imams grow stronger in a region that still reflects on its past Muslim glories

SANDRO CONTENTA
EUROPEAN BUREAU

At the Jamal Islamiya mosque in this seaside town, a Muslim lament of historic proportions is proclaimed in large letters on a framed poster: "In 1492, we lost everything."

For the mosque's leader, and much of the Muslim world, the year marks the traumatic conclusion of Islam's golden age, a time remembered like a collective wound.

It's a period when the last piece of Muslim-held territory in Spain fell to Catholic monarchs, ending almost 800 years of Moorish rule on the Iberian peninsula.

Centuries when poetry, science and architecture flourished under Islamic caliphs expired with bonfires of Arabic manuscripts, mass expulsion and extermination in the Inquisition.

To the east, the Muslim empire of the Ottomans would reign for another four centuries. But many would trace its long decline to the fall of Al Andalus, the Moorish name for Andalusia.

The result is a yearning that today makes Spain, more than any other European country, a battleground in the name of Islam.

"They stole 500 years of history from us," says Omar Checa Garcia, who heads the Jamal Islamiya mosque and cultural centre. "We want it back, but we don't want revenge."

Others are not so accommodating. Osama bin Laden uses what he calls the "tragedy of Al Andalus" as a rallying cry for his deadly brand of Islamic jihad against "the crusaders and Jews."

After the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States, bin Laden's chief lieutenant, Ayman al Zawahiri, drew a parallel between the loss of the Iberian peninsula and the struggle of Palestinians.

"We will not accept that the tragedy of Al Andalus be repeated in Palestine," he said.

The taped sermons of some militant Islamic clerics admonish followers with the legend of "The Moor's Sigh."

Having surrendered Granada to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, the Catholic monarchs of Castile and Aragon, a tearful Sultan Boabdil was scolded by his mother: "You weep like a woman for what you could not hold as a man."

On March 11, 2004, a cell of mainly Moroccan extremists, calling themselves "the brigade situated in Al Andalus," detonated 10 bombs that killed 191 people on Madrid commuter trains.

Many Spaniards blamed their conservative government's support of the Iraq war for making them targets.

Three days after the bombings, they swept the Socialist party to power and it moved quickly to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq.

But jihad fuelled by the lost glory of Al Andalus suggests that won't be enough to take Spain off the target list.

In a communiqué claiming responsibility for the March 11 bombings, the cell invoked the name of the Moorish warrior who conquered the Iberian peninsula in 711.

"We will continue our jihad until martyrdom in the land of Tarik Ben Ziyad," it said.

Says Gustavo Aristiquie, an opposition MP and terrorism expert: "Spain is considered an apostate country that must be reconquered for Islam. It's a sacred duty, and that's why the jihadis are attacking."

The bombings also focused attention on Spain's estimated 1 million Muslims, most of them North African immigrants.

Illegal immigration is rapidly increasing their numbers, making integration one of Prime Minister José Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's biggest challenges.

Warnings that mosques are increasingly falling under the control of radical clerics are coming from anti-terrorism experts and representatives of Spanish converts to Islam, a community estimated at 20,000.

They also warn of tensions between the growing number of immigrants adhering to fundamentalist brands of Islam and right-wing groups rooted in the alliance of fascism and the Catholic Church during Franco's dictatorship, which ended in 1975.

Spanish converts are lobbying the government for funds to train homegrown imams, arguing that defusing social tensions requires clerics who preach an Islam in harmony with European values, which they insist reflects the true spirit of Al Andalus.

"If we don't do this, it's war," says Abdelkarim Carrasco, head of the Federation of Spanish Islamic Entities, one of two Islamic umbrella groups that negotiates with the government.

Carrasco, 56, is a real estate agent in Granada, where members of the March 11 cell spent time in safe houses before the attacks.

Framed by the snow-capped peaks of the Sierra Nevada in southern Spain, Granada was the peninsula's last Moorish kingdom to fall.

Its symbolic significance is heightened by the Alhambra palace, home and seat of government of the Nasrid rulers. The only Muslim palace to survive from the Middle Ages, it stands above the city on the Assabica hills, revered by Muslims and celebrated by tourists.

"I tell my Christian friends, `You are eating from the stones left by the Moors,'" says Carrasco, referring to Granada's booming tourist industry.

On a hilltop directly across from the Alhambra, the first Granada mosque to be built in 500 years opened its doors in 2003. Before construction, the choice of the highly symbolic site met with two decades of resistance from local authorities, not least because it is squeezed between a Catholic church and a nun's convent.

"The church hierarchy is very hostile to Islam," says Abdulhasib Castineira, director of the Great Mosque, which was built largely with funds from Morocco, Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.
===============

End of Part 1

- SEAGOON
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 04:58:47 PM by Seagoon »
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Seagoon

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Conclusion of Article on Andulusia
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2005, 04:56:20 PM »
Part 2 -

"I think they feel threatened, actually, because if you come to this mosque on a Friday, it's packed. The church next door is only opened for weddings."

Down the hill, hidden among the steep alleyways of the ancient Moorish quarter of Albaicin, is the Al Taqwa mosque, which is also fronted by a Spanish convert but financed by the United Arab Emirates.

"My responsibility here is to make sure that Andalusia returns to being an Islamic country," says Zakaria Maza, whose mosque has two clerics from Mauritania as imams.

Maza recently spearheaded a drive to allow Muslims to pray in part of the former mosque in Cordoba, north of Granada.

Cordoba was the seat of power when the caliphate of the Umayyad clan was at its height, commanding what was then considered Al Andalus — the whole of the Iberian peninsula except for Galicia. (Today, Andalusia refers to the southern-most of Spain's 17 autonomous regions.)

As the political and religious authority, the Cordoba caliphate rivalled other Islamic dynasties based in Damascus and Baghdad. But internal feuds saw it disintegrate into competing Islamic kingdoms in 1031.

By then, the Umayyads had built a masterpiece of Islamic art, the vast Cordoba mosque. But Catholics conquered the city in 1236, built a cathedral in the middle of the mosque and barred Muslims.

Maza, a 54-year-old native of Cordoba, points in disgust to a notice on tickets handed to tourists who visit it: "Keep in mind that you are visiting a Catholic temple."

"This is terrible," he says. "We ask that everything goes back to how it should be."

Maza argues that allowing Muslims to share the former mosque would be a "sign of tolerance to the world." But he leaves the door open to eventually taking over the whole site.

The request to share the cathedral had the backing of the government MP for the area, Juan Luis Rascon, who also sits on the parliamentary inquiry into the March 11 attacks. But the Vatican dismissed the idea, urging Muslims to "accept history."

Still, Maza says victory is only a matter of time.

"Islam's time has come again, whether people like it or not. We can predict that Andalusia will once again be Muslim."

Most Muslim immigrants in the region end up working at vegetable farms around centres like Almeria, with its white stucco buildings set between desert hills and the sea east of Granada.

Five years ago, after a Moroccan murdered a Spaniard, race riots broke out in a neighbouring town and the shacks of migrant workers were burned. Area residents regard the incident as a cautionary tale, but it hasn't stopped the migratory pull of the local economy.

In Almeria's port district, the peaceful reconquest of this originally Moorish city seems well under way. The neighbourhood teems with North Africans sipping mint tea in coffee shops and streaming into the Al Muhsinin mosque.

The mosque's Palestinian cleric, Abdallah Mhanna, says at least 80,000 Muslims live in the area, some 30,000 of them illegally. Many complain of being exploited with low wages and poor housing.

Mhanna, 41, arrived six years ago from Gaza and says he was immediately struck by Andalusia's Islamic past.

"I can see the soul of Islam here," says Mhanna, who studied at Islamic University in Gaza, where the militant Hamas group wields much influence.

"We are not looking to Andalusia as our land, no. This is the land of Spanish people. But it is part of our Islamic civilization."

Andalusia is the "land of daawa" — a place where Islam is to be spread by the word and not by the sword, he says.

He flatly rejects the methods of the March 11 bombers — "killing civilians is terrorism" — but embraces the hard-line ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, which rejects secular tendencies in Islamic states.

Formed in Egypt in 1928, the brotherhood is the mother of several Islamic radical groups, including Hamas. But it also has branches that reject violent activity, and those are the ones Mhanna says he supports.

At Jamal Islamiya, Almeria's only other mosque, Garcia isn't reassured.

Having adopted Islam 20 years ago, he says many of the 7,000 Spanish converts in the Almeria area are, like him, leftists who rediscovered their true Andalusian roots.

"The real identity of Andalusia was crushed by Spain and the Catholic Church, which forced our grandparents to become Catholics," he says.

Garcia is an Andalusian nationalist. He sees the brand of Islam brought by most North African immigrants as "reactionary" and foreign.

He several times blocked bids by North African Muslims to take over his mosque, including one group that camped inside for three days before he threw them out.

Last fall, five of the nine people arrested in connection with a plot to blow up the High Court in Madrid lived in the Almeria area, including the imam of a mosque in a nearby town.

"This generation of immigrants is lost. It's under the influence of these reactionary mosques," Garcia says.

He insists social harmony depends on government backing to train Spanish imams for a homegrown Islam that embraces a multicultural and multi-faith society where women are equal, religion is a private matter and laws are secular.

Otherwise, Garcia warns, "there could be a disaster. March 11 could happen again
-----------------------------

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Torque

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"Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2005, 05:46:03 PM »
nash have you seen yoav shamir's documentary "checkpoints"?

Offline DREDIOCK

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"Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2005, 06:22:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SkyWolf
So they live in Israel and have to obey Israeli law? Imagine that.


The occupied territories are not Isreal
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline bustr

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"Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2005, 06:40:27 PM »
Someone explain to me who the modern Plaistinians are? Sadat was an Egyptian. His home land being Egypt, how was he leading anyone back to his Palistinian homeland? I also thought ethnically by birth origin the founders of the current group of Palistinians were from all over the Muslim world. Kinda like Sadat being from Egypt.

So how come before this modern round of Palistine homeland stuff got started in the 20th century didn't any of the Muslim countries take in these Muslims?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline cpxxx

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"Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2005, 06:51:39 PM »
They are all Arabs Bustr, Palestine is just a region. The Palestinians are obviously those people who live in the area or are descendants of those who were forced out by Israel. Jordan took in a lot of Palestinians until they became a threat. They were forced out in the during the infamous 'Black September' purge by King Hussein. But all are Arabs and share the grievances against Israel. The Iranians of course are not Arab but share a religion.  

The comments by the Iranian president must be taken in the context of all the usual BS that comes out of the mouths of anti Israeli groups everywhere. It's all talk. Despite numerous wars and the combined efforts of all those Arab and Muslim countries. Israel is still there. Not least because the Arabs and it seems the Persians are big talkers and poor fighters. That map while amusing serves to make the point. Israel is tiny. The Arab world is huge. But Israel is seen as the great oppressor of all Arabs!!!!  Tiny little Israel.
Iran will do nothing. The president is full of hot air. A nuclear attack on Israel would kill more Palestinians than anything else.

The article on Andalusia is interesting and serves only to illustrate how delusional some Muslims are about their place in the world. I hope someone pointed out to the guy that the only reason it was a Muslim area in the first place was because it was conquered from the Spanish who eventually took it back. They need to be careful, although the Spanish are a very tolerant people. Far too many of the Muslims are illegal immigrants. It's only a short boat ride home to Africa should the Spanish get tough.

There was some chance that Islam would grow to be a real force in Europe and elsewhere until the extremists began their antics. Now Muslims are looked on with suspicion everywhere, rightly or wrongly. Essentially Islam will be tolerated rather than welcomed from now on. Suicide bombers do nothing for Islam or their cause. The sooner they realise that the better for us all.

Offline 1K3

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"Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2005, 07:04:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger


:O :cry :rofl
im sorry but cant resist

Offline Ripsnort

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"Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2005, 07:15:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx
They are all Arabs Bustr, Palestine is just a region. The Palestinians are obviously those people who live in the area or are descendants of those who were forced out by Israel. Jordan took in a lot of Palestinians until they became a threat. They were forced out in the during the infamous 'Black September' purge by King Hussein. But all are Arabs and share the grievances against Israel. The Iranians of course are not Arab but share a religion.  

The comments by the Iranian president must be taken in the context of all the usual BS that comes out of the mouths of anti Israeli groups everywhere. It's all talk. Despite numerous wars and the combined efforts of all those Arab and Muslim countries. Israel is still there. Not least because the Arabs and it seems the Persians are big talkers and poor fighters. That map while amusing serves to make the point. Israel is tiny. The Arab world is huge. But Israel is seen as the great oppressor of all Arabs!!!!  Tiny little Israel.
Iran will do nothing. The president is full of hot air. A nuclear attack on Israel would kill more Palestinians than anything else.

The article on Andalusia is interesting and serves only to illustrate how delusional some Muslims are about their place in the world. I hope someone pointed out to the guy that the only reason it was a Muslim area in the first place was because it was conquered from the Spanish who eventually took it back. They need to be careful, although the Spanish are a very tolerant people. Far too many of the Muslims are illegal immigrants. It's only a short boat ride home to Africa should the Spanish get tough.

There was some chance that Islam would grow to be a real force in Europe and elsewhere until the extremists began their antics. Now Muslims are looked on with suspicion everywhere, rightly or wrongly. Essentially Islam will be tolerated rather than welcomed from now on. Suicide bombers do nothing for Islam or their cause. The sooner they realise that the better for us all.

Excellent post!

Offline Suave

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"Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2005, 09:49:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher
Jordan could easily be called Palestine based on population


Palestine is a geographic region, most of which lies within the nation fo Jordan. So yes, many Jordanians can call themselves palestinian, just as Isrealis can. It's a geographic region, not a nationality or ethnicity. The PLA "Palestinians" are really Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians.

Offline NUKE

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"Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2005, 10:03:19 PM »
You guys know that the UN did not create Israel, right?

Israel proclaimed intself a state in the hours before the British mandate for managment of the area was about to expire. The US, then Russia almost immediatly recognized Israel as a state.

 The area by that time had seen an influx of Jews who had fled Nazi Germany and other areas of Europe. At the time Israel proclaimed itself a state, it was a majority population of Jews.....around 600,000 if I recall. And I am just going by memory, so I may be off a little on that.

The League of nations had set out a goal of creating a Jewish state and an Arab state out of the region. Later, The UN proposal was rejected by both parties.

Then, 6 Arab nations attacked Israel and as a result, Israel captured additional land, which caused a lot of Muslims to flee the area.

Offline SkyWolf

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"Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2005, 10:05:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
The occupied territories are not Isreal


Yes... as I said above in a previous post.... They only work in Israel. Laws still apply.

Offline SkyWolf

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« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2005, 10:09:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx
T The Iranians of course are not Arab but share a religion.  


 


Pardon my ignorance. What are Iranians if not Arabs?

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2005, 10:15:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SkyWolf
Pardon my ignorance. What are Iranians if not Arabs?


persians.....they also speak farsi not arabic.

Offline Vudak

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« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2005, 10:20:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
I'll feel sorry for the palestinians the day they stop advocating the murdering and killing of innocents.  



Bingo.  As soon as a charismatic one picks up a book and reads a thing or two about Ghandi or MLKjr., voila, Western Opinion will swing the other way.

It's not as though the Palestinians don't have a great argument.  It's just their method of arguing will get them absolutely nowhere (except, perhaps, a grave).
Vudak
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Offline lasersailor184

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"Isreal must be wiped off the map" -President of Iran
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2005, 11:02:53 PM »
A MAJOR zionist movement started in 1898, or 1902 (I can't remember which).  Jews started to realize they were being persecuted in Europe and a lot of them started moving into Israel.  Though there were still quite a lot still in Israel.

The holocaust was just the final kick that gave Israel a huge majority.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"