Aircraft/Vehicle Service Dates

[Squire]

No RAF Hurricanes in Norway prior to May 1940. So its a mute point.

5-40 is the earliest date the RAF is going to be fighting the LW ETO, unless you want to get into Phoney War stuff. In addition the AH Hurricane IA of 1938? didnt have a 3 bladed prop or +12 lbs boost. So the dates wrong anyways.

Re the Fw 190A-8, I cant find anything prior to 4-44 for that one with JG2 and JG 26, but if its a sub, or if you have other info, fine and dandy.

From Crumpp: "The FW190A8 was produced from Feb. 1944"

And lets keep it civil everybody, I dont think Mr. Fork wants a 15 page flame-war over any of this. I will endevour to "object" once and then leave it at that with any of the dates provided. Thats my pledge.

[Mister Fork]

Questions
B-17G ... 6-43*
B-24J ... ?-41*
SBD-5 ... 5-43?*
P-47N ... ?-45*
Lancaster III ... 3-42*
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44*
D3A-1 ... ?-37*
P-47D-40 ... 10-44?

Aircraft[/b]
USA[/b]
A-20G ... 5-42
B-17G ... 6-43*
B-24J ... 41?*
B-26B ... 5-42
C-47A ... 12-41
P-38G ... 1-43 *updated*
P-38J ... 12-43(ETO) 2-44(PTO) *updated*
P-38L ... 7-44
P-40B ... 1-41
P-40E ... 8-41
P-47D-11 ... 3-43(D5) to 1-44(D11) *updated*
P-47D-25 ... 4-44
P-47D-40 ... 10-44*
P-47N ... 45?*
P-51B ... 2-44(ETO),8-44(CBI)
P51D  ... 1-45(CBI&PTO),3-45(ETO) *updated*
F4F-4 ... 1-45
FM-2  ... 9-43
F6F   ... 9-43 *updated*
F4U-1 ... 10-42
F4U-1D ... 4-44
F4U-1C ... 4-45
F4U-4 ... 4-45
F6F-5 ... 7-44
SBD-5 ... 5-43?*
TBM-3 ... 1-42

Britian[/b]
Boston MK III  ... 5-41
Hurricane Mk I ... 5-40 *updated*
Hurricane IIC ... 4-41
Hurricane IID ... 6-42
Lancaster III ... 3-42*
Mosquito Mk VI ... 7-43
Spitfire Mk IA ... 8-40 *updated*
Seafire IIC ... 10-42
Spitfire V ... 4-41
Spitfire Mk IX ... 7-42
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!*
Spitfire Mk XVI ... 6-44
Tempest V ... 6-44 *updated*
Typhoon IB ... 6-43 *updated*

Soviet[/b]
Il-2 Type 3 ... 10-42
La-5FN ... 3-43
La-7 ... 6-44
Yak-9T ... 1-43
Yak-9U ... 7/8-44 *updated*

Italy[/b]
C.202 ... 11-41
C.205 ... 1-43

IJA/IJN[/b]
A6M2 ... 7-40
A6M5b ... 8-43 *updated*
D3A-1 ... ?-37
Ki-61 ... 1-44
Ki-84-la ... 8-44(CBI,10-44(PTO) *updated*
Ki-67 ... 4-44!*
N1K2-J ... 1-45 *updated*

Germany[/b]
Ar 234B ... 12-44
Bf 109E-4 ... 5-40
Bf 109F-4 ... 6-41
Bf 109G-2 ... 6-42 *updated*
Bf 109G-6 ... 2-43 *updated*
Bf 109G-10 ... 3-44
Bf 109G-14 ... 7-44 *updated*
Bf 109K-4 ... 10-44 *updated*
Bf 110C-4b ... 1-39 *updated*
Bf 110G-2 ... 5-42
Fw 190A-5 ... 2-43 *updated*
Fw 190A-8 ... 2-44
Fw 190D-9 ... 9-44
Fw 190F-8 ... 4-44 *updated*
Ju 88A-4 ... 12-40
Me 262 ... 10-44 *updated*
Ta 152H ... 1-45 *updated*

Vehicles[/b] *NEW*
USA
LVT(A)2 ...2-44
LVT(A)4 ...3-44
M-3 ...3-41
M-8 ...9-42
M-16 ...5-43

Germany[/b]
Ostwind ... 8-44
Panzer IV Type H ... 8-44
Tiger I ...8-42

Soviet[/b]
T-34 ... 2-43

Theatres of Operations
PTO - Pacific
ETO - Europe
CBI - China-Burma-India/CHINA-BURMA-INDIA

[Karnak]

If the F6F-5 is going to get bumped back to be used in place of earlier versions then the same should be done to the Ki-61.  I am at work now and can't look up service dates for earlier Ki-61 versions though.


I would mark the Spitfire Mk XIV as 9-44 in practicality at this point.  It was held back for anti-diver work prior to that.

[Bruno]

Ar 234B

- 8.44[/b]

Erich Sommer flew the first combat mission with the Ar234 on 2 August 1944, a photo-recce flight over Normandy bridgehead...

The Luftwaffe conducted reconnaissance operations with the new Ar-234Bs through the fall, including some reconnaissance missions over England, beginning in October, to determine if the Allies were preparing a follow-up amphibious landing in the Netherlands. Despite the activity, it wasn't until 21 November 1944 that Allied pilots reported spotting an Ar-234B, when P-51s escorting bombers over Holland observed one of the jets overflying their formation. Detected, the German pilot immediately applied power and disappeared.

Bomber sorties did not take place until Christmas Eve, when nine Ar 234Bs, each carrying a single 500 kilogram (1,100 pound) bomb, took off from a German airbase single file to attack Liege in Belgium, in support of the Wehrmacht's ground offensive then underway in the Ardennes. Such attacks continued until the weather became too nasty in early January to allow operations to be safely continued.

An inventory of Ar-234s at that time indicated 17 of them in service, with 12 configured as bombers and 5 as photo-reconnaissance machines. This quantity was surprisingly small, since 148 had been delivered to the Luftwaffe by the end of 1944. The small number of the aircraft in service was almost certainly due to the disruptions caused by Allied air attacks on German industrial and military infrastructure.

So your choice:

Recce as early as August '44.

Bomber sorties began Dec '44

For ToD 234 Recce Sorties over the Normandy Bridgehead would be fun (no bombs of course). I believe the 234 was even used in the Norway/Tirpitz scenario as recce.

Me 163

Erprobungskommando 16 - first operational mission flown on 13 May '44 by Späte in the all-red Me 163B V-41.

I think that for events, scenerios and ToD using opration testing units s as equal to 'squadron service' would be a mistake. I only offer the above because  you may or may not use the same critera in the CT.

I. Gruppe JG 400 was established on August '44. First combat action on 10 Sept '44 where a lone 163 attacks a single B-17 that flew out of formation. Next action 11 Sept '44 where 7 163's  attack a formation of 1131 bombers and 900 escort fighters. Three B-17's were said to have been shot down (unsure of the details).

Your choice here as well:

May '44 operation testing

August '44 for the establishment of JG400

Sept '44 for first combat

Ju 88A-4

The Ju 88A-4 entered production in early '41. KG 51 was one of the first bomer units to recieve the Ju 88A-4. The Ju 88A-4 first major combat mission was flown on 22 Jun '41 on the Ost front.

The Ju-88s involved in the Battle of Britain were a mix of Ju-88A-1s and some Ju-88A-5s. Going into the first half of '41 the Ju 88A-5 equipped nearly all Ju 88 squadrons (some A-1s were converted to A-5 standard) which was about the same time the A-4 entered squadron service.(The A-4 is 15 mph faster then the A-1 and upto 21 mph faster then the A-5, slighly heavier bombload).

I don't recall exact service entry date for the A-4 with KG 51 but I believe April/May '41is close enough. Maybe someone has an exact date.

[Karnak]

Yeah, but it is kid of moot with things like the Ju88 and Ju87.  They are going to get used all the time just because there is no other option.

It is too bad too as the Hurri I has a hell of a time with the Ju88A-4.

[Bruno]

It's not just those aircraft either...

See what I posted on the 110C-4/B above.

So with Ju 88A-4, Ju 87D-3, 110C-4/b and the poor Hurricane is fighting up hill all the way. Even the Spitfire 1a doesn't reach 12lbs boost performance.

The LW were even flying sorties in  E-1s and E-3s during BoB (all though up graded to E-4 standards in most cases).

A BoB event is one of the worst in terms of a 'historical accurrate plane set'. Its still fun to play though.

[Squire]

Ok, so far.

Bf 110C-4/b 1-39? Typo? I saw no source for 1939.

Spitfire IA 8-40, well, you could go with that to differentiate it from the BoF/Norway fighters, although its real 1st in service date is before that, really spring 1940, with 100 octane and 3 bladed Rotols or De-Hav props. I dont think it matters all that much.

Ki-61 was used in New Guinea in "Summer 1943" out of Wewak, but I dont have a set date for it. 6-43? would be close. 1st US combat report engaging it seemed to be 7-43. - Osprey.

Mr. Fork, despite all the posts and sources you can find, you still do the ? thing with the Spit 14. Its Jan 1944 with 610 Sqn. Any book will confirm that. That being said...9-44 is its deployment date to Holland, which may be a more reasonable date for it, imho.

Lancaster I was 3-42. Im not sure there is a big diff between it and a Lanc III. Thats your call. Im not a Lanc expert.

D3A and B5N Kate are both 12-41 (Pearl Harbor), thats a no brainer.

P-47N 6-45 (PACIFIC) Le Shima off Okinawa.

[Bruno]

Bf 110C-4/b should be Aug '40. The 110c entered service in '39.

However, the 110C4/b w / DB601N  is an aircraft that was even rarer then the Ta-152... In AH it has a DB601N...

[Squire]

Ya, AH really needs a garden variety Bf 110C-3. The trouble with AH is the desire to have so many of the ac multi-purpose, which leads to some later and or rarer types. Im surprised the 109 isnt the 109E-7, so it can carry a bomb.

...and a He-111 or Do-17 is very much in need for any BoB setup. Old news.

[Widewing]

One of the problems I'm seeing here is confusing combat deployment with squadron deployment. For example, the 318th FG received their P-47Ns in April of 1945. They deployed for combat in mid May, destroying 34 Japanese aircraft over Kyushu on the 25th.

New units were usually equipped a month or two prior to combat deployment.

P-47D-25s were first issued to the 8th AF Groups on May 22, 1944. The 56th received 3 of them. By the beginning of August only about 40% of the 56th were flying D-25s or D-26s, most of the 56th was still using the D-22-RE and D-23-RA. Evansville built D-26s began trickling into units in early July, even though they were arriving in Britain prior to D-Day (they had to be assembled, test flown and have new radios installed). Issue dates for the D-27s and D-28s literally overlapped, but all three (D-27-RE, D-28-RA and D-28-RE) types entering combat units by late August. D-30-REs and D-30-RAs (RE indicates built in Farmingdale, RA means built in Evansville) were in Britain by late October of 1944. Actual combat debut is in question, but not later than late November. D-30s were very busy during the Bulge offensive, mostly flying in the 9th AF.

My regards,

Widewing

[Bruno]

The E-4 in AH can carry a bomb (250kg, possibly 4 x 50kg in the future) as it could in real life (E-4/B). You must mean a drop tank, in that case some E-4s (even E-3s) were brought up to E-7 standard (could carry a DT). Some Emils in BoB were fitted with a DTs.

The thing with the DB601N (109E-4/N, 109E-7/b, 110C-4/b (C-7), 109F-2) is that it required C-2 / C-3 fuel.

But I wish for a proper BoB planes set to include the Do-17z, He-111 and Ju 88A-1 or A-5, Ju 87B and of course a 110C-3 or 4 (with DB601As) as well.

No matter what the plane set or time frame IMHO its always more useful to have an aircraft that is most representative of what was really there. You are right in that in AHs early development the holes in the plane set were thought of in terms of what roll does X-planet fill in the main. When this is the case what difference does it make to have a Ju 88A-4 or 110C-4/b?

It's not until you start to plane events, scenarios etc.. that this stuff matters. Scenario players are only a small portion of AHs player base and for the most part they could make do with what there was. ToD may change that, who knows.

[Bruno]

One of the problems I'm seeing here is confusing combat deployment with squadron deployment. For example, the 318th FG received their P-47Ns in April of 1945. They deployed for combat in mid May, destroying 34 Japanese aircraft over Kyushu on the 25th.

I agree, we kinda touched on that in the Spitfire Variants thread:

The dates I am really interested in is 'squadron deployment' or 'full squadron service'. The problem with production dates and/or delivery dates is you can sometimes find gaps of 'some months' between those dates and 'squadron service' and/or first combat/losses.

The problem with just first combat/loss dates are you may have 1 or 2 squadrons with a particular aircraft who are flying 'combat missions' but for whatever reason they have not made contact.

Most of the dates in Forks list are carried over from a previous thread that look for combat (first claims / first losses).

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Bruno
I agree, we kinda touched on that in the Spitfire Variants thread:

Most of the dates in Forks list are carried over from a previous thread that look for combat (first claims / first losses).

Indeed. The P-38J was being issued to combat units in November of 1943, albeit in small numbers initially. The first operational P-38H fighters were being deployed in May/June of 1943. When the 78th FG deployed to Britain, they did so initially with the P-38F. However, before their Lightnings (and most pilots) were to shipped to North Africa, they had received 4 of the new P-38G-3-LO types. This places deployment at mid to late November of 1942. As to the P-51B, the 354th FG deployed to Britain with their Mustangs in October of 1943, but was not classified as combat ready for another five to six weeks (the early P-51Bs had lots of bugs to iron out).

My regards,

Widewing

[Squire]

"SERVICE DATES - THE DATES THEY WERE FLOWN OPERATIONALLY AND ACTIVE IN A SQUADRON, NOT OFF THE FACTORY FLOOR OR IN TESTING OR FINISHED DEVELOPMENT."

Well I think we need clarification as to wether you want "operationally in a combat zone", or not. Personally I would go with ops in a combat area, but thats me. Flying ops in a non combat zone to me means zip for figuring dates for a WW2 setup. You could be flying "operationally" in the Panama Defense Zone with P-47Ns in 1-45, doesnt mean they belong in a Phillipines setup.  

*As for the P-38G, I found a source that states 11-42 in Tunisia on ops same book as above, didnt see it 1st time around.  

 "They deployed for combat in mid May, destroying 34 Japanese aircraft over Kyushu on the 25th".

*Go with 5-45 then for the P-47N.

Mr. Fork, I have 10-44 for the FM-2 deployed into combat PACIFIC. It was "in service" before that on USN CVEs...but not in combat, so you need to clarify maybe what you want...

If we get within a month we are doing good, the list is meant as a guideline not The Holy Bible. Its intended to help those with not a lot of sources to ballpark it.

[Widewing]

F4F-4 began deliveries on 12/31/41. After the Coral Sea battle squadrons aboard Pearl Harbor based fleet carriers received the F4F-4. Midway was largely (perhaps totally) fought with the F4F-4. So, I would state squadron service date as 4/42 (aboard the Saratoga and Enterprise) and 5/42 for Hornet and Yorktown, with combat debut early 6/42. While we do not have an actual Martlet I, FAA Wildcats saw combat in December of 1940 (Christmas day to be precise). I suppose the closest we would have to the early Martlet I would be the F4F-4 limited to the four gun option. For scenarios we can readily generate the Martlet III, V (F4F-4/FM-1) and VI (FM-2).

My regards,

Widewing