Author Topic: Paris is looking like Iraq  (Read 2377 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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Paris is looking like Iraq
« Reply #90 on: November 03, 2005, 10:39:10 AM »
As usual Boroda will wave facts and data off as "propoganda", but while he relishes in denial, the rest of you can learn from history:
Food shortages after 1947

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Paris is looking like Iraq
« Reply #91 on: November 03, 2005, 10:56:21 AM »
When I talked to people living in soviet russia they all had a common problem:

They had loads of money, nothing to spend it on. Shops were empty.

Well, if you wanted a Vic20 back in 1987 it cost you a years salary. I was surprised to see them at the shops as importing western hardware was banned back then. So there was SOME use I guess. :o
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #92 on: November 03, 2005, 10:58:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]

I'm really wishing that our neighbour giant will be one day a place where I can go to visit cool places and shopping without fear of being bullied by a corrupt police force or the mob.


Been there. Twice. Didn't get robbed. The taxi drivers didn't screw me very much. Police didn't pester me. The locals, once they found out I couldn't speak Russian, left me alone.

Russians were very wary of us foreigners. They didn't have the fake smile so often found in the West, where we try to sell *whatever* to someone. They weren't openly hostile and they weren't unfriendly. Most of the time. Some were absolutely amazing to hang around with. And gender roles differ a lot from what I am used to in Scandinavia. They also must eat something other than what we do here because physically, the young women were more fit than in the west. The men is a totally different story however.

At the DZ, I got a very good look at the social stratification in Russia. I can tell you this: the bridge between the have and the have nots is enormous. There are basically three layers: the ultra rich (who could afford to skydive - even in Russia it costs a lot of money, even for a northern European), the ordinary people who don't have much but get by, and immigrants, who get by on a sh|t on a piece of paper. Same with the elderly.

Whatever misconceptions I and others may harbour about Russia and the Russian people, you will find that there is a great deal of people who, materially and socially, were better off during Communism. Ratting on your neighbor, risking being sent to Gulag and deprivement of basic human rights were just things you had to pay for that.

I will tell you one thing though: Russians, as a people, are incredibly resilient and tough. They may come off as laconic and depressed to some, but they can take an amazing amount of crap and keep going, and they need very little to do so. Underestimating the Russian people is common in the West; from my personal experience, I think Russia will grow again because its potential is incredible.

Just an example: three years ago, the dropzone had a tent. And three big AN-28's and a military Mi-8 helicopter. Two years ago, they had a run down bunkhouse and a manifest as well. A year ago, they added more buildings as well as two packing tents. This year, they had cafeteria, a restaurant of sorts, showers, 20 new bunkhouses, a new aircraft and were paving the runway.

All because one Russian dude had an idea and acted on it.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2005, 11:03:15 AM by StSanta »

Offline john9001

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« Reply #93 on: November 03, 2005, 11:00:18 AM »
boroda sounds like a skit from SNL, is he for real or just yanking your chains?

"white russians"= russians who supported the short lived russian republic that was formed after the fall of the czar and lasted until the commies created the workers paradise.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #94 on: November 03, 2005, 11:03:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta


Just an example: three years ago, the dropzone had a tent. And three big AN-28's and a military Mi-8 helicopter. Two years ago, they had a run down bunkhouse and a manifest as well. A year ago, they added more buildings as well as two packing tents. This year, they had cafeteria, a restaurant of sorts, showers, 20 new bunkhouses, a new aircraft and were paving the runway.

All because one Russian dude had an idea and acted on it.



damm captalist

Offline DJ111

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« Reply #95 on: November 03, 2005, 11:09:11 AM »
SO ... about the rioting in Paris ...
Retired CO of the ancient **Flying Monkeys** CT squadron.

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #96 on: November 03, 2005, 11:13:43 AM »
StSanta the last visit I made there was mid 90's and I know things have changed a lot there. Around those times our local travel agencies cancelled all trips to russia because of the systematic robbing of the tourists.

They were shaken immediately after stepping out of the bus, sometimes with the local police standing next to them.

After the cancellation of trips the local commandant swore to root the crime in the city. Never really happened though - the thugs just moved into sidestreets instead of the open market square.

On our trip to St.Petersburg we got stoped only once by a police whom we promptly bribed and continued on our way. No way you can trust a police that you can buy with $5 value. Even worse would have been getting to an accident. When Boroda speaks of free healthcare he forgets to mention they're STILL using washable cyringes in russian hospitals. HIV anyone?

OTOH I walked 3 hours around the most infamous areas of St.Pete at 3 am and I'm still alive. Can't recall what the area was called, there was channels and a draw bridges that got opened for the night - we got stuck after returning from a nightclub.

At the club I saw people being frisked for guns / drugs and one physical assault where a club security punched a drugdealer in the face. On arrival to the hotel we got a call from 'room service' offering hookers to the room.

All in all I saw deep rooted poverty and above all, crime all over. That was around 1993 - I hope things are better now.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline indy007

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« Reply #97 on: November 03, 2005, 12:09:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DJ111
SO ... about the rioting in Paris ...


Still going last I saw. Shooting at the police and all that.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #98 on: November 03, 2005, 01:10:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flit
Ignorance is Blessed


You are absolutely right.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #99 on: November 03, 2005, 01:22:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
boroda sounds like a skit from SNL, is he for real or just yanking your chains?

"white russians"= russians who supported the short lived russian republic that was formed after the fall of the czar and lasted until the commies created the workers paradise.


Which one of "the short lived russian republic that was formed after the fall of the czar and lasted until the commies created the workers paradise"?

Again, you speak nonsence. Sorry.

First of all - there were no such "republics", at least in large scale. Second: there were "supreme governors" at two different parts of Empire. One of them slaughtered runaway "legislative council" members. Bolsheviks let them go, and they got killed by White Guards. Bolsheviks were 200% more democratic then White Guards.

You use terms that you don't understand.

Half of my family, Cossack officers, fought in White Army. My GrandFather fought in Red Army. You don't understand anything about it.

White Russia = Belorussia = Belarus. It doesn't have anything common with White movement during the Civil War. Russian Emperor was a Czar of Great, Small and White Russia, King of Poland, Geat Prince of Finland etc.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #100 on: November 03, 2005, 01:24:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by indy007
Still going last I saw. Shooting at the police and all that.


I wonder if it is all a trap for Sarcazy. Or a way for him to get more popular....

Talked to some French-speaking people here, they all wonder and don't understand if it is a provocation for or against him...

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #101 on: November 03, 2005, 01:31:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta
Been there. Twice. Didn't get robbed.  


Santa, can I quote your opinion at some other places?

From what You wrote before - I thought that your description of "nevermind, we'll fix it" opened my eyes. It's so Russian that I never notice it myself, but I have this attitude all the time.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #102 on: November 03, 2005, 01:48:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
On our trip to St.Petersburg we got stoped only once by a police whom we promptly bribed and continued on our way. No way you can trust a police that you can buy with $5 value.


You, Finns, are probably the only nation that's satisfied with your police.

I know it on my personal experience, believe me, our "gangsters" are much better then our beloved Militia.

 
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Even worse would have been getting to an accident. When Boroda speaks of free healthcare he forgets to mention they're STILL using washable cyringes in russian hospitals. HIV anyone?


Hmm. I was in a hospital in April, spent more then 2 weeks there. No washable cyringes. AFAIK there are no more such things here for about 15-20 years.

 
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
OTOH I walked 3 hours around the most infamous areas of St.Pete at 3 am and I'm still alive. Can't recall what the area was called, there was channels and a draw bridges that got opened for the night - we got stuck after returning from a nightclub.


Most infamous areas in SPb with channels and opening bridges?! LOL!!! :D

I lived in Dachnoye, "Prospekt Veteranov" subway station (it was built in 79 instead of old Dachnoye open-air station). It's 10km to the South from "channels and bridges". It was a "dangerous" place back in late-70s, according to Soviet conditions. I still walk there at night without any problem. A drunk Finn lying on the grass or snow near the local liquer store wasn't a surprise for anyone when I lived there. I moved to Msk in 1982.

 
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
At the club I saw people being frisked for guns / drugs and one physical assault where a club security punched a drugdealer in the face. On arrival to the hotel we got a call from 'room service' offering hookers to the room.


Clubs in Leningrad, er, SPb are really often searched for drugs, it's their local Militia sport :mad: I don't think that punching a drug-dealer in the face is bad.

Phone calls about "do you want a girl?" are a common thing in province even now, in Msk and SPb it's over for 10 years now. Hmm, sorry, last time I got such phone calls in hotels in Rostov-on-Don or Volgograd was in 1999.

 
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
All in all I saw deep rooted poverty and above all, crime all over. That was around 1993 - I hope things are better now.


In 1993 we literally didn't have anything to eat. Thanks to Democracy and Free Market. Now we are doing 100 times better. For example, I am one of the poorest, and right now  I enjoy good beer with "omul' " - the tastiest fish from lake Baikal %-] Tomorrow we have a holiday...

Offline indy007

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« Reply #103 on: November 03, 2005, 01:58:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
I wonder if it is all a trap for Sarcazy. Or a way for him to get more popular....

Talked to some French-speaking people here, they all wonder and don't understand if it is a provocation for or against him...


Honestly when I first heard about it, I assumed it was a football riot.

Maybe it's a trap.. can't say I'm current on french politics though. However most conspiracy ideas (theories are provable) never seem to pan out. From an outsiders prospective, looks like it's mainly a problem with the recent immigration crackdowns and poverty in immigrant communities. The 2 kids that got killed were just a spark. Saw similar happen in L.A. a few years ago.

Makes me wonder what would happen if something like this broke out in Houston. The only thing I know for sure... should violence somehow spread into my suburb... rioters violating my perimeter without knowing the password wouldn't live long enough to regret it.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2005, 02:00:43 PM by indy007 »

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #104 on: November 03, 2005, 02:06:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
When I talked to people living in soviet russia they all had a common problem:

They had loads of money, nothing to spend it on. Shops were empty.


That's one of the things that I thought is impossible for Westerners to understand, like unemployment for Russians.

Anyway - you could buy anything if you had enough money. Money was easy to earn, if you didn't mind some job where you didn't have to sit on your arse from 9 to 6.

Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Well, if you wanted a Vic20 back in 1987 it cost you a years salary. I was surprised to see them at the shops as importing western hardware was banned back then. So there was SOME use I guess. :o


What is Vic20?

Western hardware was in "commission" shops and sold openly, but for different money. You have to understand that food and other vital stuff was much cheaper in USSR while electronics was much more expensive then in the West. So it goes. We lived in a different way.