Proof from HTC that Hispanos are accurate. plz dont ignore

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

HTC, I apologize for this pissed-off sounding message, but ive had it with the chog and its 900yard lasers. Bring up this issue of hispano performance in AH has so far been useless, as all of you simply refuse to even consider that something might be wrong with your beloved 900yard lasers. So now I simply request that somebody from HTC give us data that proves that the Hispanos in RL got 900yd kills on a daily basis, that they scored regular hits at those and longer distances, plus that they regulary killed tanks in one or 2 passes. After all I imagine it will be easy for HTC to prove this fact as they certainly have such concrete data on Hispano RL performance, that they can easily dismiss any "whine" from anybody who thinks Hispanos are inaccurate. So plese HTC can we have some evidence? I know im a new guy here and that I prolly dont have a right to be so rude/sarcastic, but I would greatly appreciate some evidence on HTC part that the AH Hispano is an accurate representation of its RL  bigtoeerpart in performance.
Please HTC dont just ignore this post, and please post your evidence that hispanos are accurate.

Something just isnt right with them, if they regularly kill at 900yds.  In all my reading of WW2 air combat, Ive only read of one account of a kill at anything like those ranges. It was Buzz Beurling who after months of calculations on his weapons trajectory managed to kill a 109 at 800yards. He was arguably the best shot of the war,reportedly even better than Marsaille, who at his best averaged 15 bullets per kill, (yes the ground crew counted after every sortie)
Every other kill ive heard of happend at much shorter ranges. In fact all WW2 pilots accounts/memoirs ive read often made fun of their opponets tendancy to fire at over 500yds/meters as these experienced aces knew this to be a waste of ammo. Certainly Hispano fire at 500yds plus doent fit into that category.

The closest kill Ive ever heard of that matches everyday Hispano performance in range happend during the Korean war. Interestingly enough the scoring pilots wingman was a WW2 corsair pilot.  The scoring F86 pilot opened fire at the Mig15 at over 1000yds, his wingman(ww2 corsair pilot) thougt this highly odd and saw it as a waste of ammo. He was duly surprised to then see killing hits on the Mig. So what? This seemingly supports the AH everday Hispano 900yd range, doesnt it? Well one key element left out of the story was the combat altitide, 45,000feet. At that alt the air is much thinner and the bullets can score effectivly at those extreme ranges. We all know hispanos in AH regulary hit out to 900yds on the deck. So whats so special about them?

Once again, I know it will be easiest for HTC to ignore this post as another whine, however I urge you guys to respond with supporting evidence if think Hispanos are accurate.

thanks GRUNHERZ

btw lets all keep it civil

[bloom25]

HS are a little weird still IMO, but I don't let it get to me that much.

What I wanted to comment on was that f86 story.  The particular kill you refer to was with 50 cal.  The 50 cal has a better trajectory than the HS.  When the later model f86s began carrying Hispanos, they only had 4 seconds(!) of total ammo.  They would fire only 2 guns at a time, giving 8 seconds of fire.  There is NO WAY a f86 pilot would have ever attempted a 1000 yd shot, even with the lead computing gunsight the f86 had.

I had the opportunity to do some work for a pilot over the summer.  He flew a26s and then later f86 sabres in Korea.  Later he helped develop the f111.  I asked him what range pilots opened fire.  He said that depends on what you are shooting at, g forces, etc.  On average he said 300 yds was the ideal distance in the p51.  (Which he also flew, but not in WWII.)  Because combat was faster in Korea, they opened fire a little farther out, but still 600 yds would have been a long shot.  One factor he mentioned that is present in AH, but not too big of a factor, is that when the guns were fired it was impossible to aim.  The plane would shake pretty violently, so you had to be close to get repeated strikes.  This also would make it impossible to shoot with "spray and pray" tactics.  Another factor was that firing the guns would slow you down, and I guess in Korea this would allow the migs to get away.

AH gunnery has gotten more realistic since beta.  MGs are pretty good now, you have to be very close to get kills with them.  The shvaks and mg151 also seem pretty good.  Really the only exception to the rule is the HS.  (Specifically the F4u-1c, somehow it's guns have a much better trajectory than the Typhoon.)  I know Pyro was doing some work with bullet trajectories in the next version, so it might be best to let him do his job.

 

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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[AKSeaWulfe]

I dunno... acid is fun to fly on.
-SW

[Wilbus]

Good post guys, good info. Peronally I think that the hispanos kill way too easily.
The Luftwaffe aces during WW2 seldeom shot at more then 300 yards, in fact, most of them only opened fire bellow 150 yards.
900 yards (I've even been shot down at more then 1000) is way too far in my opinion. Imagine your self flying in 200-400 Mph with turbulence and wins then try to see the plane at 1000 yards would be hard, to shoot them would be even harder. Specially with the guns shaking the plane.



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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 "EisMeer"

[-towd_]

so he is changing the hispanos ?you know somthing we dont ?  or are you just asking him to shut up and be happy.

 the fellos asked a valid question . and i for one bet he dosent get it answered to his satisfaction . bet 10 bucks hog hispanos in 1.5 will still kill a tank lol ( in a  level head on )

[Duckwing6]

if someone can hit you at 900 yards with a hispano you did something remarkably wrong ..

[Jekyll]

I wonder why the RAF bothered to put 40mm cannon on the Hurricane IID if their regular Hispanos could kill tanks in one or two passes?

[Beurling]

Hi flying as buzz for 41/2 years i know this.

He shot mostly 250 and under. He did get a kill at 800 yrds. He felt it was luck.

Beurling at his height of skill was the best allied shot of the war.

He says most of his kills took a 1 second burst.

He was no way as good as HJM.
I would say there were 50 or 60 lw experten Who were as good or better. Practice makes perfect.

The 20's here have a super flat trajectory.

The 2 on the spit are awsome. The four on the 1c not only kill well but out to 800.

i think they kill to well 600 to 1k.


EYE

[discod]

Who is getting 900 yard kills???  I mean sure I've taken a few pot shots at near 1K range to try and scare a guy off my teammates six but I don't ever recall getting anything but a few pings...never a kill.

I'll have to try it offline and see what the results are.

Jsut remember that sometimes lag can make it look like guys are further back than they really are.

Another thing to consider is that this is just a game and pilots don't care if they use 600-700 rounds for a super lucky 900yd kill.  I imagine it didn't happen in WWII cause your ammo was your life so you would be stupid to take those kind of shots.  

But one of my favorite features of the 20mm cannon round is the explosive tip.  Remember they are not just a chunk of lead...they are like little missiles.  

[discod]

I just did a test of the 900 yd kills.  I found it to be quite difficult but it can be done.  I did find that it took an average of 400 20mm rounds to get a hit and in 10 attempts, only once did I get a kill.

The biggest difference we have over the real WWII pilots is that we can ZOOM in for a closer look.  The zoom definately made it easier to get hits at +900yds. (personally I don't use the zoom in a dogfight but I did in this test to show it as a factor

This is the amount of lead it took to hit the leading P51
   

This is the reverse angle  

This is the side view  



[This message has been edited by discod (edited 12-15-2000).]

[TheWobble]

SWEET GUNSIGHT

[StSanta]

Heheh the chog requires less lead at 900 than German 20mm do at same angle at 300  .

Me, I just try to stay outta 10-2 position of any hisp equipped aircraft  .



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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

[gatt]

 

 

[Rickenbacker]

While I agree that the Hispano seems a little too good against tanks, there's one thing I'd like to mention. All these "900 yard kills" mean 900 yards on the killed pilots FE, in more or less high speed chases, right? In those cases the attacker is _always_ (due to net lag) 300-500 yards closer than he appears. If you try shooting from 900 yards on your own FE you'll see that it's not that easy, as discod showed it takes a lot of ammo and seldom results in a kill. 5-600 yards (which is what the Chog sees in these engagements) is much easier. Probably much easier than real life too, but that's the same for all planes in AH.


 

[Cobra]

It's not the guns that allow you to hit accurately at 900 yds, its the icon range finder that does.  That range finder allows you to compensate and adjust your aim quickly because know the exact range the bandit is from you.  Something that these WWII anecdotes don't take into account.

Cobra
(I fly mainly Yaks and 51's for A2A, so I'm not a rabid hispano defender)