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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2005, 04:40:25 PM »
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Sandy
 Would you be ok with your 16 year old kid joining the military without your consent?


No, I would not, but I'm not certain that everyone shares my opinion so I'm unwilling to impose my beliefs upon anyone else.
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Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2005, 04:46:42 PM »
Its already law that, they can not join without consent, hell maybe even with consent now(used to be 17 with parents consent).



Right now Minors are severly restricted in what they can do. With the exception of abortion.


We either should not impose restrictions on them and leave it to the parents or we should.

I go with giving the parents the rights to choose what go on in their minor childs life.
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Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2005, 04:50:17 PM »
Sandy
 What decisions do you think the average minor of say 12, should be able to make without his parents consent?
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Offline ASTAC

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« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2005, 04:52:01 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Do our rights begin at age 18? I mean constitutional rights. Can we legally restrict the constitutional rights of someone because they are under 18?

 


Yes...Children have no rights except what their parents grant them. If Children had all the rights as adults then based on that, parents authority can be usurped anytime the child disagrees.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2005, 04:52:17 PM »
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
I have no idea, prolly sometime around Roe V Wade?


:D


I do not see why the law being around for any time period has any bearing on the question though.

It still boils down to giving a minor adult rights over a medical procedure.

If your going to give kids adult rights where do you draw the line, why is this right special?


So would you be ok with a law saying any kid 12 and over can sign up for the military, no parental say? Or buy booze? Or drive? Or own guns? Or smoke? All things Minors don't have the right to do now.


Well... that's just it. For as long as I can recall, minors have had that right. I'm wondering how it happened.

As for the military at 12 thing, it's a rather ridiculous question. We do have child labor laws to protect them. Now... as for older teenagers joining the military, I think this should be a family decision. If a teenager is mature enough at even fifteen, I might be inclined to approve of their decision. IIRC, in decades past, people of a relatively young age by our standards got married had children and worked. Sure, the law sets the standard at a particular arbitrary age. You and I and everyone else here should know full well that not all 18 year olds are equally mature. I believe that the gross majority of these type laws were enacted to protect minors from older adults.

My oldest is going to be 18 this year. Legally, he doesn't have to, but I suspect that he will continue to seek my approval of any major decision he may make in the next few years. I do not require the state's assistance for his respect of my decisions.
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sand

Offline ASTAC

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« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2005, 04:54:42 PM »
quote: Originally posted by midnight Target
    Do our rights begin at age 18? I mean constitutional rights. Can we legally restrict the constitutional rights of someone because they are under 18?



Yes...Children have no rights except what their parents grant them. If Children had all the rights as adults then based on that, parents authority can be usurped anytime the child disagrees.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2005, 04:58:07 PM »
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Yes...Children have no rights except what their parents grant them. If Children had all the rights as adults then based on that, parents authority can be usurped anytime the child disagrees.


You better check your laws. Parental authority over teenagers isn't all that.
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sand

Offline ASTAC

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« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2005, 05:01:11 PM »
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Originally posted by Sandman
You better check your laws. Parental authority over teenagers isn't all that.


Because of unwanted and unchecked meddling by the govt.
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Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2005, 05:14:45 PM »
Sandy
 I know my 12 year old in the Military is argument is ridiculous.

But look at it from the 12 year old having an abortion without parental consent point of view and you will see how that seems just as ridiculous to me. It’s a major medical procedure that can have life long negative effects, is a minor, like a 12 year old girl really the right person to make the call?



Some kids may tell their parents.  Some wont, no mater how good the parents are.


Has your kid ever made a mistake on the Scale of getting pregnant? I can't think of a bigger mistake other then getting drunk and killing someone that a kid can make.

How many girls, after they go to planed parenthood, and have the counselor tell them they do not need to tell their parents about this are going to face that consequences and do it?

Think about it, think back to when you were a teen and if you had made a bad mistake like that would you have owned up?

I don't think I would have.

But the parents have a right to know what’s going on in the lives of the kid that they are responsible for.

Why is that such a bad thing?
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2005, 05:31:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ASTAC
quote: Originally posted by midnight Target
    Do our rights begin at age 18? I mean constitutional rights. Can we legally restrict the constitutional rights of someone because they are under 18?



Yes...Children have no rights except what their parents grant them. If Children had all the rights as adults then based on that, parents authority can be usurped anytime the child disagrees.


The Supreme Court may disagree with you. I'll look up the ruling, but I believe they stated that minors are in fact "persons" recognized by the constitution. They are protected by the Bill of Rights as much as anyone.

Schools do have the right to limit speech that they deem "dangerous" but they cannot limit political speech that does not affect the safety of the students.
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Offline ASTAC

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« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2005, 05:33:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
The Supreme Court may disagree with you. I'll look up the ruling, but I believe they stated that minors are in fact "persons" recognized by the constitution. They are protected by the Bill of Rights as much as anyone.

Schools do have the right to limit speech that they deem "dangerous" but they cannot limit political speech that does not affect the safety of the students.


and they probrably do disagree...however, my comment is more of a "how it should be" kind of statement.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2005, 05:43:32 PM »
I can see your point GT, but that's not what Prop73 is going for. A pregnant 17 year old is a vastly different situation than a pregnant 12 year old. This prop treats them both equally.

As to it being a major medical procedure, in the first trimester it's just not. Vacuum aspiration is considered to be a minor surgical procedure.

Think about this GT... on the one hand, you've stated that an abortion can have lifelong negative effects, and then on the other you've stated that having one is avoiding the consequences, and not owning up to a mistake. Sounds like you want it both ways. An abortion is a serious thing. I agree. But I think that the decision to have an abortion is no less an adult one than engaging in sex in the first place. Both a child and an abortion can be considered consequences to engaging in unprotected sex.

All that aside... I'd be more inclined to vote yes on 73 if it were applied differently. I think it would be best if all teenagers had some adult, preferrably parental guidance regarding the decision to abort or not. I'm not so sure it should be mandatory.

If a 12 or even 14 year old gets pregnant, they're young enough that I really have to wonder if they've been victimized in some way.

All in all when it comes right down to it... I'd probably vote yes on a proposition that required parental notification for any child under the age of 15. If this makes me wishy washy, so be it.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2005, 05:44:17 PM »
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Because of unwanted and unchecked meddling by the govt.


Actually, I think it was because of parental abuse. ;)
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sand

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2005, 07:25:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
I can see your point GT, but that's not what Prop73 is going for. A pregnant 17 year old is a vastly different situation than a pregnant 12 year old. This prop treats them both equally.

As to it being a major medical procedure, in the first trimester it's just not. Vacuum aspiration is considered to be a minor surgical procedure.

Think about this GT... on the one hand, you've stated that an abortion can have lifelong negative effects, and then on the other you've stated that having one is avoiding the consequences, and not owning up to a mistake. Sounds like you want it both ways. An abortion is a serious thing. I agree. But I think that the decision to have an abortion is no less an adult one than engaging in sex in the first place. Both a child and an abortion can be considered consequences to engaging in unprotected sex.

All that aside... I'd be more inclined to vote yes on 73 if it were applied differently. I think it would be best if all teenagers had some adult, preferrably parental guidance regarding the decision to abort or not. I'm not so sure it should be mandatory.

If a 12 or even 14 year old gets pregnant, they're young enough that I really have to wonder if they've been victimized in some way.

All in all when it comes right down to it... I'd probably vote yes on a proposition that required parental notification for any child under the age of 15. If this makes me wishy washy, so be it.



I admit it would be better if the law treated 12 to 16 year olds different then 17 and older, but I just can't get past that a 12 year old could go have this done without the parents knowing.

I think to most young teens this would seem like such a easy out, and they prolly wont tell their parents if they can avoid it. Leave the parents out of such a decision really seems wrong.

It is like the government helping kids hide from the problem. Yes in a sense by making the abortion call they are taking responsibility for what they have done, but its like signing up for summer school on their own and going all summer to hide bad grades they got, and the school helps them hide it.

Most parents are not monsters, and even good parents and good kids can make mistakes, as a young teen everything seems so, important at the time, young love seems like it will go on forever, and kids do stuff they shouldn't. Parents should be part of the decison on what to do about it. What if it is a 16 year old girl who doesnt want to tell her parents her 25 year old boyfriend nocked her up, should she be able to hide it?


I am not one for teaching no birth control either, I think the schools should be teaching not having sex is best but if you do it do it with a condom and do not agree with the Bush admins current restrictions on how birth controll is taught. (though I do think parent should be able to op out on having their kids in the sex ed classes on this stuff)
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2005, 08:43:02 AM »
sandie and mt... I am not sure what you guys are saying.   Are you saying that the child itself  12-17, is mature enough to make a decision that has to do with something like a medical procedure that... even tho rare, can kill or cause lasting problems?  That she is mature enough to understand the ramifications and understand how the whole thing may effect the rest of her life?

or... are you saying that even if she isn't...  the parents should not be involved (why?) and that the real people who should have a say are the school and the abortion agencies?

A tattoo is a harmless procedure too.  so are breast implants or plastic surgery...  

I guess I am trying to figure out what possible reason you have for not letting the parent know when you are going to do a medical procedure on their minor child.

None of the parents I know seem to understand your reasoning.

lazs
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