Author Topic: Calif Nov Election (Read 1701 times)

Sandman · « **Reply #60 on:** November 04, 2005, 09:10:19 AM »

No... I'm saying it's not the governments responsibility to ensure that families communicate with each other. You'll note that Prop 73 is basically about communication. It's not about permission.

As for tattoos, they are illegal with or without parental permission for anyone under the age of 18, so it's not relevant to this discussion.

The pregnant 12-year old scenario get's bandied about pretty freely around here. I've done a bit of seaching for stats and I can't find anything on the rate of 12-year old pregnancies. I'm betting it's miniscule and that it's simply a good number to use if you're looking for an emotional response.

Teenage abortion rates appear to be on a steady decline anyway. What's with all the handwringing?

source

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #61 on:** November 04, 2005, 10:19:30 AM »

Interesting chart.

The reason I use 12 is it is about as young as a girl can get pregnant, and it ilistrates the worst case the law applies to.

I have no doubt it is rare.

A more interesting chart would be one that shows abortions to minors, and how many told their parents. I bet less then 25% do.

But I doubt anyone would do the survey.

I would rather see the government force the minor to inform their legal gaurdians then have the government help a minor hide something they should not.

midnight Target · « **Reply #62 on:** November 04, 2005, 10:54:40 AM »

There is nothing good about a minor having an abortion.

This law (73) IMHO is in fact unconstitutional and should never be passed. If a person has a constitutional right to do something then that right should not be infringed. And as long as Roe v Wade is in effect, 73 is bad law.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #63 on:** November 04, 2005, 11:14:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target
There is nothing good about a minor having an abortion.

This law (73) IMHO is in fact unconstitutional and should never be passed. If a person has a constitutional right to do something then that right should not be infringed. And as long as Roe v Wade is in effect, 73 is bad law.

So your for dropping the rest of the restrictions on minors rights as well?

Sandman · « **Reply #64 on:** November 04, 2005, 11:16:36 AM »

All or nothing!

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #65 on:** November 04, 2005, 11:42:58 AM »

It really does not have to be all or nothing, but this seems like a very odd right to give to kids.

Other states have laws just like this MT, why hasnt the SC shut them down?

SaburoS · « **Reply #66 on:** November 04, 2005, 11:59:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GtoRA2
So you guys that are for 73, you would be OK with your minor daughter having an abortion without your consent?

No teen girl given the choice is going to face her parents and tell them she made that kind of mistake.

Not even if the parents are saints and would have nothing but loving concern for the kid.

What a wonderfull way to teach personal responsibility! Yeah, no owning up to something you messed up on, just hide it.

If you could have gotten away with getting out of getting in major trouble as a kid you tell me with a strait face that you would not have taken it no mater how nice or cool your parents were?

Children under 18 are minors, the parents have the right to know when ANY medical procedure is done to their kids. I guess it would be ok with you guys to have the school offer the birth control they inject into the kids arm without consent or them getting tatoos or having a boob job too?

These kids don't have the right to vote, or drink or in many cases drive but you guys are ok with them having a major medical procedure? We are not talking about late teens in many cases here, these could be 12 year old kids.

Why don't you just give the rest of your parental rights to the nannystate too.

If you think passing a law is going to force morality on the immoral, you're mistaken. I'd rather that girl that made a mistake be able to get an abortion under regulated medical care rather than through an unsafe method. She's gonna get the abortion no matter what, one way or another. If one's daughter can't come to her parents about serious things as abortion, they've got bigger issues.
Usually minor girls are conned into having unsafe sex that results in pregnancy. After she becomes pregnant, the "father" usually refuses responsibility in the issue.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #67 on:** November 04, 2005, 01:42:32 PM »

None of this is about Morality for me.

I am not making any moral calls on these kids that get pregnant, I have known good kids who made this stupid mistakea, and it didn't change my view of them being a good kid.

Kids make mistakes, its a fact, and sex it one lots of them make.

Its about Parents having the right to know what their minor child is doing.

The kid is their responsibility, and not every kid getting prego can be blamed on bad parenting but the parent is responsible for everything they do, their kid goes out an wrecks the car and takes out the neighbors house, YOU the parent are responsible for taking care of the damage.

They have a right to know what goes on in the life of the child they are responsible for.
As far as I can tell they have that right in every other aspect of their kids lives, just not in this one.

Sandman · « **Reply #68 on:** November 04, 2005, 04:44:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GtoRA2

Its about Parents having the right to know what their minor child is doing.

Well... then you have another issue I believe. I was looking into key loggers and other such software for monitoring computer activity and discovered that you cannot eavesdrop on a fifteen year old without informing them that you're doing so. They have a right to privacy according to the law (in this state at least).

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #69 on:** November 04, 2005, 04:51:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Sandman
Well... then you have another issue I believe. I was looking into key loggers and other such software for monitoring computer activity and discovered that you cannot eavesdrop on a fifteen year old without informing them that you're doing so. They have a right to privacy according to the law (in this state at least).

You have to be ****ing kidding me?

Got a link?

Not me Sandy.

Now your prolly going to roll your eyes on this.

I do not have kids. Unless something really changes in the way I feel about this I never will.

I do not think I could give enough of myself to a kid to be a good parent. I would prolly end up like my old man. The whole idea of having kids weirds me out.

Still, I don't think I need to be a parent to see this as being a problem.

It has been an interesting and enjoyable conversation though;)

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #70 on:** November 04, 2005, 04:54:22 PM »

I'm amazed that anyone would argue against 73. You really think minors should be allowed to just go get elective surgery done without any parental input?

Sandman · « **Reply #71 on:** November 04, 2005, 05:02:34 PM »

Prop 73 doesn't change the fact that they can do it without parental consent.

Sandman · « **Reply #72 on:** November 04, 2005, 05:03:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GtoRA2
You have to be ****ing kidding me?

Got a link?

I'm going to have to do some digging. It's been a few years since I toyed with such things.

lazs2 · « **Reply #73 on:** November 05, 2005, 09:39:28 AM »

hand wringing? good point. what is all the hand wringing about? If a minor has a right to have an abortion then it does no harm to notifiy the parents. It seems the right thing to do.

I guess what it boils down to is that adults will be involved in the thing no matter what. the question is do we only want the views of strangers and the minor?

What is the problem? The prop merely says that in order for a minor child to have a potentialy life threatening and life changing operation that the parents be informed.

What possible reason would there be for anyone to object to that?

If they are a minor then they are a minor... they are under the care of the parents.... you can bet if something goes wrong physicaly or mentaly that the parents will be the ones who will have to deal with it forever.. not the school and not the abortion mill.

we are not talking about weather the child is entitled to the right to have an abortion.... we are talking about the right of the parent to know if some adult is operating on their child.

no handwringing... just taking things one logical step at a time without the lefty hysteria.

lazs

Sandman · « **Reply #74 on:** November 05, 2005, 10:18:13 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
hand wringing? good point. what is all the hand wringing about? If a minor has a right to have an abortion then it does no harm to notifiy the parents. It seems the right thing to do.

I guess what it boils down to is that adults will be involved in the thing no matter what. the question is do we only want the views of strangers and the minor?

What is the problem? The prop merely says that in order for a minor child to have a potentialy life threatening and life changing operation that the parents be informed.

What possible reason would there be for anyone to object to that?

If they are a minor then they are a minor... they are under the care of the parents.... you can bet if something goes wrong physicaly or mentaly that the parents will be the ones who will have to deal with it forever.. not the school and not the abortion mill.

we are not talking about weather the child is entitled to the right to have an abortion.... we are talking about the right of the parent to know if some adult is operating on their child.

no handwringing... just taking things one logical step at a time without the lefty hysteria.

lazs

In other words, the conservatives need help from the state to be good parents. Good luck with that.