Author Topic: George Bush's Statement of Faith  (Read 1935 times)

Offline Gunslinger

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George Bush's Statement of Faith
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2005, 07:46:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
"- Manadel Al-Jamadi, who was being held at Abu Ghraib, the Iraqi prison in which the well-known abuse of prisoners took place. He died on November 4, 2003, of "blunt force injuries complicated by compromised respiration," doctors said. Two CIA personnel, an officer and a contract translator, were present when he died. The agency and Justice Department are investigating."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/22/1085176035220.html?from=storylhs&oneclick=true


But I don't see anywere where this is the norm/policy instead of the exception.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2005, 07:52:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
But I don't see anywere where this is the norm/policy instead of the exception.



I didn't said it was or wasn't.  I was refuting the people that said or implied that humiliating the prisoners was the worst that happened.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2005, 01:44:14 AM »
The medical findings mean the deaths were linked to the actions of another person; however, that doesn't necessarily mean the deaths were criminal in nature, military officials said today.

A 10th prisoner death, also determined a homicide, already has been resolved. Officials said that in September 2003, a soldier shot and killed a prisoner in Iraq who threw rocks at him. The soldier was punished and dismissed from the Army for using excessive force.
=====
out of tens of thousands of bad nasty prisoners being held in afganistan and Iraq (and all those secret places no one knows about) 10 detainees have died,
and not necessarily due to criminal actions, thrawn is of course the proudest and loudest post euro to point out the horrific failures of anything related to the american effort to fight the war on islamic terror which europe has failed so  miserbly to prosecute these past 40+ years....... no doubt adding to the crises which led directly to american involvement post 9/11.

 

b e a u t i f u l   :O
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Offline -tronski-

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« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2005, 01:58:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
I didn't said it was or wasn't.  I was refuting the people that said or implied that humiliating the prisoners was the worst that happened.


You've never heard of Extraordinary Rendition?
 
 Tronsky
« Last Edit: November 06, 2005, 02:00:59 AM by -tronski- »
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline Silat

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« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2005, 03:01:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Have we beaten any prisoners to death while torturing them?


reports on War on Terror deaths of those in custody....






Source: LA times
Date: 22 May 2004



List of Detainee Death Inquiries Expanded to 37
The Pentagon's higher figure for Iraq and Afghanistan
includes at least eight unresolved homicide
cases that may have involved assaults.
By John Hendren, Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — Pentagon officials on Friday increased to 37 the number of detainee deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan that have prompted investigations, including at least eight unresolved homicides that may have involved assaults before or during interrogation.

Earlier this month, defense officials detailed 25 cases of prisoners who died in U.S. Army detention centers. But in an unscheduled briefing at the Pentagon, a senior defense official and a senior Pentagon medical official said the number had risen to 30 cases, including some involving more than one death, for a total of 37 deaths. Thirty-two deaths occurred in Iraq and five in Afghanistan.

Although military officials cautioned that some of the deaths involved justifiable use of force, the rising number of detainee deaths intensified concerns among lawmakers and critics of the American-led occupation of Iraq.

"Time after time, we've said … there are a few bad apples, and every day we're finding out that this apple cart is getting bigger," said Rep. Kendrick B. Meek (D-Fla.), a member of the House Armed Services Committee who was briefed on the cases Friday. "I'm concerned not only about getting to the bottom of this, but also getting to the top of it."

Human rights activists have denounced detention practices.

"It's important that the Pentagon seems to be releasing these figures with some semblance of transparency, but it's difficult to know if we're far — I would even say frighteningly far — from the whole truth," Amnesty International spokeswoman Wende Gozan said.

The senior defense official said the number of known deaths in detention was a small proportion of the 45,000 detainees who have been handled in Iraq alone. He compared the 37 deaths with what he said was a 3.3% death rate in federal and state prisons in the United States.

Photographs and video images of detainees being abused at the Abu Ghraib prison — site of two of the newly disclosed suspected homicides — have drawn international condemnation and prompted more than half a dozen probes of U.S. military detention centers and inquiries in both chambers of Congress.

The latest images were published in Friday's Washington Post.

Of the 37 deaths detailed Friday, investigators found that 15 were due to "natural or undetermined" causes other than homicide, in many cases heart attacks.

Eight deaths were ruled justifiable killings. In those cases, soldiers followed so-called standard rules of engagement and killed detainees either to protect other troops or prevent prisoners from escaping, the senior military medical official said.

Two are wrongful deaths, while as many as nine are homicides still under investigation. The remaining three are in a special category because they occurred outside of any detention facility.

Among the cases is a fatal shooting at southern Iraq's Camp Bucca in April 2003 that the Army ruled justifiable. But a Red Cross team that witnessed the incident at the facility concluded that "at no point" did the prisoner pose a serious threat to guards.

The deaths of the others deemed justifiable homicides all occurred at Abu Ghraib — four in November 2003, one in March 2004 and two in April 2004.

Both of the wrongful deaths were in Iraq.

In a September 2003 incident, a soldier fatally shot a prisoner who was throwing rocks at him at a forward operating base.

He was later downgraded in rank from specialist to private and discharged from the Army, apparently the only soldier to date to be prosecuted for killing a detainee. He was not imprisoned.

The second case, of a CIA contract worker who allegedly killed an Iraqi prisoner at Abu Ghraib in November, was referred to the Justice Department, the official said. As a civilian, the worker could not be prosecuted under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, officials said.

The Justice Department said Friday that it had received another referral from the Defense Department "regarding a civilian contractor in Iraq" and had opened an investigation. Officials would not say if the incident involved a death. It was the first Justice Department criminal investigation sought by the Pentagon.

The CIA has referred at least two other cases to the department.

Of the nine unresolved homicide cases, three occurred in Afghanistan and six in Iraq, including the two at Abu Ghraib.

In one of the cases, a preliminary assessment has found that an Abu Ghraib detainee died of natural causes, but the investigation is continuing.

Among the specifics offered by the Pentagon were details regarding 23 autopsies by military medical examiners. Twelve of the death certificates concluded that the deaths were from natural causes. One Iraqi death was labeled an accident. One other case is pending; defense officials could provide no information about it.

Some of those labeled homicides involved gunshots, but the most common reason was blunt-force injuries. Six died at detention centers throughout Iraq:


On June 6, 2003, Naem Sadoon Hatab was found strangled in an outdoor isolation area at the Whitehorse detention facility in Nasiriya, Iraq, according to his death certificate.

On June 13, Dilar Dababa died of a severe head injury in Iraq.

One Nov. 4, Manadel Jamadi died of blunt-force injuries complicated by "compromised respiration" at Abu Ghraib. The suspected homicide occurred while he was with Navy SEALs and other special operations troops.

On Jan. 9, Abdul Jaleel died of blunt-force injuries and asphyxiation at a prison in Al Asad, Iraq. His case is one of the suspected incidents of homicide still under investigation. Jaleel was found gagged and shackled to a cell door with his hands over his head.

On April 28, Ali Gumaa Fahin died of complications due to multiple gunshot wounds in Baghdad.

On May 12, Maj. Gen. Abid Mowhosh, former commander of Iraq's air defenses, died of asphyxiation due to smothering and chest compression in Qaim, Iraq.
Three detainees were killed in Afghanistan, according to their death certificates.

Most recently, on Nov. 6, Abdul Wahid died of multiple blunt-force injuries — complicated by what examiners suspect was a condition in which toxins are released to the body, sometimes due to a crushing injury or an electrical shock — at a detention center in Helmand province.

Two deaths at Bagram Air Base outside Kabul have been investigated for 17 months. On Dec. 3, 2002, Habib Ullah died of a blood clot caused by a blunt-force injury at Bagram. A week later, an Afghan whose last name was Dilawar died of blunt-force injuries to his lower body that complicated his coronary artery disease at the base outside Kabul, according to the death certificates.

Human rights groups have been pressing for an accounting of the deaths of Ullah and Dilawar.

The senior military official said the investigations have gone on so long because they were "very difficult" and "very complicated."

The three deaths that occurred outside of detention centers since August 2002 include one in which a soldier shot and killed an Afghan who allegedly lunged at his gun, the senior military official said.

In the second, an Iraqi was fatally shot after he allegedly moved menacingly toward a sergeant who was escorting him, he said.

In the third, an Iraqi drowned after he allegedly was forced to jump off a bridge by U.S. troops, officials said, confirming media reports about the fatality for the first time.

Separately, Army officials have closed 14 cases in which detainees were allegedly assaulted, and they are pursuing two assault investigations.
+Silat
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Offline Silat

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George Bush's Statement of Faith
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2005, 03:02:29 AM »
OCTOBER 24, 2005
2:50 PM

CONTACT: American Civil Liberties Union
media@aclu.org



U.S. Operatives Killed Detainees During Interrogations in Afghanistan and Iraq
CIA, Navy Seals and Military Intelligence Personnel Implicated


NEW YORK - The American Civil Liberties Union today made public an analysis of new and previously released autopsy and death reports of detainees held in U.S. facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom died while being interrogated. The documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled, beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot and cold environmental conditions.

“There is no question that U.S. interrogations have resulted in deaths,” said Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU. “High-ranking officials who knew about the torture and sat on their hands and those who created and endorsed these policies must be held accountable. America must stop putting its head in the sand and deal with the torture scandal that has rocked our military.”

The documents released today include 44 autopsies and death reports as well as a summary of autopsy reports of individuals apprehended in Iraq and Afghanistan. The documents show that detainees died during or after interrogations by Navy Seals, Military Intelligence and “OGA” (Other Governmental Agency) -- a term, according to the ACLU, that is commonly used to refer to the CIA.

According to the documents, 21 of the 44 deaths were homicides. Eight of the homicides appear to have resulted from abusive techniques used on detainees, in some instances, by the CIA, Navy Seals and Military Intelligence personnel. The autopsy reports list deaths by “strangulation,” “asphyxiation” and “blunt force injuries.” An overwhelming majority of the so-called “natural deaths” were attributed to “Arteriosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease.”

While newspapers have recently reported deaths of detainees in CIA custody, today’s documents show that the problem is pervasive, involving Navy Seals and Military Intelligence too.

The records reveal the following facts:

A 27-year-old Iraqi male died while being interrogated by Navy Seals on April 5, 2004, in Mosul, Iraq. During his confinement he was hooded, flex-cuffed, sleep deprived and subjected to hot and cold environmental conditions, including the use of cold water on his body and hood. The exact cause of death was “undetermined” although the autopsy stated that hypothermia may have contributed to his death. Notes say he “struggled/ interrogated/ died sleeping.” Some facts relating to this case have been previously reported. (In April 2003, Secretary Rumsfeld authorized the use of “environmental manipulation” as an interrogation technique in Guantánamo Bay. In September 2003, Lt. Gen. Sanchez also authorized this technique for use in Iraq. Although Lt. Gen. Sanchez later rescinded the September 2003 techniques, he authorized “changes in environmental quality” in October 2003.)

An Iraqi detainee (also described as a white male) died on January 9, 2004, in Al Asad, Iraq, while being interrogated by “OGA.” He was standing, shackled to the top of a door frame with a gag in his mouth at the time he died. The cause of death was asphyxia and blunt force injuries. Notes summarizing the autopsies record the circumstances of death as “Q by OGA, gagged in standing restraint.” (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Abdul Jaleel.)

A detainee was smothered to death during an interrogation by Military Intelligence on November 26, 2003, in Al Qaim, Iraq. A previously released autopsy report, that appears to be of General Mowhoush, lists “asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression” as the cause of death and cites bruises from the impact with a blunt object. New documents specifically record the circumstances of death as “Q by MI, died during interrogation.”

A detainee at Abu Ghraib Prison, captured by Navy Seal Team number seven, died on November 4, 2003, during an interrogation by Navy Seals and “OGA.” A previously released autopsy report, that appears to be of Manadel Al Jamadi, shows that the cause of his death was “blunt force injury complicated by compromised respiration.” New documents specifically record the circumstances of death as “Q by OGA and NSWT died during interrogation.”

An Afghan civilian died from “multiple blunt force injuries to head, torso and extremities” on November 6, 2003, at a Forward Operating Base in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Abdul Wahid.)

A 52-year-old male Iraqi was strangled to death at the Whitehorse detainment facility on June 6, 2003, in Nasiriyah, Iraq. His autopsy also revealed bone and rib fractures, and multiple bruises on his body. (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Nagm Sadoon Hatab.)
The ACLU has previously released autopsy reports for two detainees who were tortured by U.S. forces in Bagram, Afghanistan, believed to be Mullah Habibullah and an Afghan man known as Dilawar.

“These documents present irrefutable evidence that U.S. operatives tortured detainees to death during interrogations,” said Amrit Singh, an attorney with the ACLU. “The public has a right to know who authorized the use of torture techniques and why these deaths have been covered up.”

The documents were released by the Department of Defense in response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed by the ACLU, the Center for Constitutional Rights, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense and Veterans for Peace. The New York Civil Liberties Union is co-counsel in the case.

As part of the FOIA lawsuit brought by the ACLU, a federal judge recently ordered the Defense Department to turn over photographs and videotapes depicting the abuse of prisoners held by the United States at Abu Ghraib. That decision has been stayed until October 26. The government has not yet indicated whether it is going to appeal the court's decision.

The FOIA lawsuit is being handled by Lawrence Lustberg and Megan Lewis of the New Jersey-based law firm Gibbons, Del Deo, Dolan, Griffinger & Vecchione, P.C. Other attorneys in the case are Singh, Jameel Jaffer, and Judy Rabinovitz of the ACLU; Arthur Eisenberg and Beth Haroules of the NYCLU; and Barbara Olshansky of the Center for Constitutional Rights.

To date, more than 77,000 pages of government documents have been released in response to the ACLU's Freedom of Information Act lawsuit. The ACLU has been posting these documents online at http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia.

The documents released today are available online at http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
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Offline AWMac

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« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2005, 03:11:26 AM »
Still sorting through the bones from boxes in the Ministary of Justice in Iraq...guess these bones of Brothers, Sons, Husbands didn't matter.

Guess the Fathers, Wives, Daughters and Sons didn't matter.

What is the price of Life nowadays?

Mac
« Last Edit: November 06, 2005, 03:17:02 AM by AWMac »

Offline Torque

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« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2005, 03:48:43 AM »
contorting apologists bring in the clowns.

Offline AWMac

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« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2005, 06:10:55 AM »
Ohhh everyone loves a Circus...  I like the "Dog and Pony" show the most.

Bring in the Clowns....

Mac

Offline lada

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« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2005, 07:43:13 AM »
all you need is just a mirror.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2005, 12:06:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by -tronski-
You've never heard of Extraordinary Rendition?
 
 Tronsky



I never heard of the term before now, but I am familiar with the practice.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2005, 12:10:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AWMac


What is the price of Life nowadays?

 


According to Sally Struthers, it's just pennies per day!
sand

Offline -tronski-

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« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2005, 12:57:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
I never heard of the term before now, but I am familiar with the practice.


It's a wonderful thing...a good way of almost keeping your hands clean..

 Tronsky
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #73 on: November 07, 2005, 01:16:01 AM »
Quote
Of the 37 deaths detailed Friday, investigators found that 15 were due to "natural or undetermined" causes other than homicide, in many cases heart attacks.

Eight deaths were ruled justifiable killings. In those cases, soldiers followed so-called standard rules of engagement and killed detainees either to protect other troops or prevent prisoners from escaping, the senior military medical official said.

Two are wrongful deaths, while as many as nine are homicides still under investigation. The remaining three are in a special category because they occurred outside of any detention facility.


so nine total......wow pol pot, stalin, and hitler must be turning in their graves.  :rolleyes:

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #74 on: November 07, 2005, 01:24:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Yeah good point. We could go the other way and rule with an iron fist.  

Take a page from how the Commies controlled people. Course that would never fly with most people here, (it would prolly work though)


But we have drifted into Iraq, and I was thinking more Alqueda When talking torture.



Say you get a tip the terrorsit are plotting something, and we pic a guy up traveling with info in Afganistan, the stuff he is packing hints at a nuke inside the US borders.

Do we play nice and hope he spills it and risk American lives or do we hook hits nuts to a battery charger and make him talk?


How about if the guy is innocent and we torture him anyway?
Where are our morals and ethics then?
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell