Neat stuff from grunts in Iraq

[Casca]

Originally posted by straffo
The unreliability was created by the change made to the weapon to use .30 (or 0.303 ? I don't remember)  instead of 8mm because the manufacturer had trouble with non metric measurement.

The unreliability was at least in part created by the magazine design and placement which admited dirt and contamination.

[Eden]

Originally posted by straffo
Well it's inexact ,the chauchat was used by the AEF as an interim weapon waiting for the browning.

The unreliability was created by the change made to the weapon to use .30 (or 0.303 ? I don't remember)  instead of 8mm because the manufacturer had trouble with non metric measurement.

I think you will have a hard time defending the Chauchat (sorry).  From what I have read it had a lot of problems (not just due to re-chambering which was something that was tried to improve the reliability).  The rounds were heavily tapered and rimmed and had to be greased by the crew in order to feed properly.  The magazine had an opening in the side which enabled the grease to be applied but also enabled debris to get in and clog the whole thing up.  Due to the shape of the round the magazine was curved dramatically and was limited to 20 rounds (compared to the 500 round belt in the Maxim).  It also had a fairly long stroke which compounded the debris problem and made firing the thing a difficult process (it was unaccurate due to this issue - the 8X51R lebel round does kick hard).  It had a problem ejecting rounds and was made out of mostly shoddy stamped parts.

Somwhere I read that they made over 250,000 of them and it seems likely that they were sold to the Americans in order to try and make back some money.

[straffo]

hmm ... well I should have wrote : "even more unreliable" instead

IMO the chauchat should be compared to the BAR not the Maxim
that won't make the chauchat a better weapon

[Eden]

Now the Fusil Automatique Modele 1917 rifle was something ideed!

Credit where its due.  France was one of the first contries to adopt a semi-automatic rifle as a standard issue (I think Mexico was the first.  In 1911 the Mexican army adopted the Mondragon semi-auto. Designed by Gen Mondragon of the Mexican Army.)  Interesting history (The french weapon designers always seem to be shrouded in mystery and the history is hard to piece together) and strange how they went back to a bolt action rifle with the MAS-36.

[straffo]

Not strange , the french HQ was convinced the soldier will waste ammo with a semi-auto.

And again this gun was not reliable ...

If you can read French (or use an online translator) : http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/sommaire.html

[Hangtime]

If you guys are interested in military hisory, weapons development and sniper rifles you might wanna check out Rifles of the White Death.

Rifles of the White Death traces the interesting history of Finnish arms development as well as Finland's amazing national history. While the book is geared toward the firearms collector, it does have merit for the non-collector interested in world history. The story of Finland is greatly unknown to the modern day shooter, which is sad. The history of Finland is one filled with determination, a continual fight for freedom, ingenuity and incredible military feats against terrible odds. I would not call this a gripping read -- after all, the book is mainly about the variations in specific collectable arms. Still, the facts presented within the pages are valuable and interesting enough to help change your world view. Finland is probably the only nation in the world to be invaded by the Soviet Union and remain sovereign. During two separate wars, the Finns bloodied the Russian forces to the extent that the Soviets had to except a less-than-ideal victory. Expecting an easy rollover, Stalin invaded Finland in November of 1939. The prognosis was a 16-day victory. As the war rolled on past that optimistic deadline, the Finn forces managed a kill ratio of 40 Soviets for every Finn soldier killed. Of the 1,500,000 man invading army, the Russians lost 1,000,000. In total, the Finns lost 25,000 men. The bravery and determination of the Finnish soldier should be a continual lesson to anyone who values freedom. Their fighting skill and excellent marksmanship decimated their enemy. After the Winter War of 1939 and 1940, a Russian general was quoted as having said, "We gained 22,000 miles of new territory. Just enough to bury our dead".

The book also includes an interesting segment of sniper rifle development and military history. Again, the historian in me was intrigued to learn of the various modifications to the original M-N 91 design to make it an efficient long-range sniper rifle. While we are usually caught up in new developments within the sniper industry, it is always interesting for me personally to delve into the history of the art. I particularly enjoy comparing the old with the new. It is often eye opening to realize the feats individual soldiers have achieved with equipment that we today would consider less than obsolete! Today we talk of mil-dots, high power scopes, IR, Starlight, and Laser Range finding. Yet in the 1930s and 1940s, a sniper was expected to do his job with little more than an iron sighted rifle. A Finn farmer turned civil guardsman still holds the highest kill record of any sniper in history. Simo Häyhä, as recounted in the book, was responsible for the demise of 505 Russian soldiers! (Editor's note: Some sources say as many as 542 kills in this three month period.) Another Finn tallied 400 Russians as a sniper and another 200 with a submachine gun. What truly amazes me is that these two gentlemen plied their trade at ranges sometimes in excess of 600 yards - with IRON sights! Equally amazing is how quickly they managed to do this.

I've got a Finn M-39 and a M-27.. and they are without doubt (1500 rounds thru 'em now) the most accurate bolt action battle rifles I've ever held in my hands. Even without the impressive 'history' it's instantly apparent when you handle one what it was designed to do.. and it does it very, very well.

For you Sniper Fans

[Eden]

Thanks Hangtime,

Definitely on the "To Read" list.  Makes me appreciate my M-39 more now.

[Hangtime]

The Finns also made this monster... wonder what 'ol Carlos Hatchcock coulda done with one of these.

Lahti Anti-Tank Rifle

As an interesting aside, they sold fer about 75 bucks each here in the US back in the 1960's. Would love to see the look on the guys face up at the range office with the reply to the 'caliber?' question.

"20mm"

Muahahhahhahhaaahhaha!

[Eden]

Awesome,

Back in the day when Anti-Tank guns could be man-portable.

[lazs2]

the solothurn was a better semi auto 20mm anti tank gun but it went for a lot more money in the 60's  some sold for as much as $150 mail order delivered to your home... 20 mm ammo was as much as $10 a hundred delivered..

lazs

[Seagoon]

Hi,

Thanks for posting that, forwarded it to a few guys who have spent a lot of time "over there" for their feedback. Will let you know if I get anything really interesting in reply.

The weapons ratings pretty much correspond with what I've been hearing. The SF guys are no longer asking for, they are demanding a new round to replace the .223 and word has it the military will probably increase the caliber of the next generation of military rifles. However, it is almost certainly not going to be the 7.62 round, but something in-between. The logic seems to be that they want a round with increased penetration and stopping power, but also something female and smaller soldiers can still fire without getting knocked over themselves. They also want a round that stops in an enemy rather than passing through, which is a tall order obviously. Changing the bullet composition may be the answer here.

Anywho, regarding the Jihadis, yup you line up the stats and the Coalition forces are winning hands down, but then again, they can win any war of attrition we enter into simply by never giving up. We, on the other hand, with a little over 2,000 dead are already debating how we are going to leave the battlefield.

There is a widely repeated anecdote in the Arab world of a mother who had seven sons, she sent them off one by one to fight as Jihadis, and she never cried as they left for the struggle. One by one they were killed, but she never cried or hesitated to send the next son off to battle. Finally word came that her seventh son had been martyred in the war against the infidels, and at this news she burst into tears. When her friends asked her "is it because all your sons are gone that you weep or do you cry because you loved your youngest son more than all the others?" to which she replied, "no, I weep because I have no more sons to send to die for Allah."

The anecdotes that Western media prefers to circulate, tend to be provided by Cindy Sheehan and certainly don't dwell on how proud we are of sacrifices made that were intended to preserve and defend democracy, freedom of religion, and win those rights for others, etc.

As I've said before, I'm not sure we have the level of commitment as a culture necessary to stand up to a movement that confesses: Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Quran its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief. [Slogan of the Muslim Brotherhood and most of the affiliated Jihadist organizations including Al Qaeda, Hamas, Abu Sayaaf, etc.] and is willing to put that confession into action, again and again, and again, ad infinitum.

I hope and pray I'm wrong yet again.

[Eden]

Resolution comes from desparation.  So far we are not that desparate.

[lasersailor184]

The M2 was never semi auto.  NEVER.


However, it fired at such a slow rate of fire that it was easy to squeeze off single shots.

[Eden]

It can be set to single fire by adjusting the internal timing knob (a little cheat in the design) however you are correct in that it is easy enough to fire single shot with a little practice (even if still set as automatic).

[VOR]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
The M2 was never semi auto.  NEVER.


However, it fired at such a slow rate of fire that it was easy to squeeze off single shots.

You're half right, the M2 flex was never semi-auto but it's possible to fire single shots by rotating a knob on the back of the buffer assembly which will either hold down or release the bolt as each round cycle completes. When the bolt release is held down (by a protrusion on this knob), the weapon continues to cycle while the butterfly triggers are pressed; when the bolt release is not held down, the bolt will lock open after each shot, requiring you to manually release it by pressing the release in order to chamber the next round. So to be true to definition, it isn't semi auto mode since the bolt does not complete a full firing/unlocking/extracting/ejecting/chambering cycle from shot to shot.

By the way, zeroing the sights on a 10 meter paster board prior to qualification requires the use of single-shot mode. I wouldn't wanna be the dummy on the firing line that tried to cowboy fire a single round out of the thing while it was in auto mode. It's also been my experience that rate of fire can vary alot from gun to gun.