Neat stuff from grunts in Iraq

[Fishu]

well EXCUSE ME for misreading it as WWII instead of WWI.
Nobody of course came to figure out that possibility in their mighty smartness.


Maverick,

You base my knowledge on something I wrote because of misreading?
good to know.


However my actual argument is still valid.
The ammunition is pretty much the same between WWI and WWII.

I do know that the Springfield is based on the K98
USA paid royalties to Germany until the WWI.

[Eden]

Just to be clear.  AK was chosed to supplement a need to dismount and in open terrain (several miles of clear visibility) the M-9 (beretta) was not a viable choice.  The AK was reliable but not accurate beyond 100m.  Eventually the AK was replaced by am MP-5 which had significant benefits.

The M-16 has often been attacked due to reliability (jamming) and caliber size.  Some things to keep in mind:

1) It is a fairly light weapon when fully loaded (ammo is easy to carry)
2) It has a mild recoil and can be fired by a person weighing 150lbs (or less)
3) It has a proven accuracy off 300m or more and markmanship can easily be taught due to the fairly simple sighting system (and somewhat natural feel to the shouldering of the weapon)
4) It is easily upgradable with accessories and heavier barrells (etc).
5) Mainenance is fairly easy and the weapon works just fine if kept wet (which is why it has to be kept so darn clean).

I have fired most of the military weapons talked about in this thread and agree with the observations about the M-14 and M-1 however I weight 230lbs and can easily deal with the recoil and weight.  The modern military is not structured the same way.  A lighter, milder weapon is necessary as a general purpose weapon.

[Eden]

Originally posted by Eden
Just to be clear.  AK was chosed to supplement a need to dismount and in open terrain (several miles of clear visibility) the M-9 (beretta) was not a viable choice.  The AK was reliable but not accurate beyond 100m.  Eventually the AK was replaced by am MP-5 which had significant benefits.
 

And also the RG soldier firing the weapon had somehow "missed" and this was a bit of a trophy (a good luck charm if you will). (A basic rule of war - "a hand gun is what you use to fight your way to a rifle")

[Eden]

Originally posted by Maverick
Bj.

Nope they didn't have Garands in WW1 they almost didn't have them for WW2 as it entered production just about the start of the war for the US. Frankly fishu talks a lot but knows very little about military matters. In WW1 the springfield was the issue rifle for the regular troops. They DID have the BAR in production but to apease the french and their ego the expeditionary force accepterd that HUGE POS (I don't know the spelling but it was pronounced sho sho) the french thought was a light MG. That weapon got plenty of our troops killed because it didn't work.

It was a Chauchat and was developed to fire the french developed Lebel Ammunition (first cartridge to use a smokeless powder).  THe round was heavily tapered and rimmed (here is a snapshot)






When the machine gun was developed the limitations of the round became aparent.  The heavy taper and rim caused all types of feeding problems.  The weapon crew had to grease the rounds in order to feed them and the magazine was this awful half mood design (the sides of the magazine were open and debris would get in there and jam the whole works up.



The French learned early that it was a POS and unfortunately had a ton of them in their invetory.  How else to make their money back but to sell to an unwary US.

[lazs2]

fishu.. just in case no one else caught it... the 8mm round is not more accurate than the 30-06... it is less.   The ought six has a better balistic coeficient and drops less at longer range.

some german soldiers were good marksmen but most had never fired a gun before the war...  

Just like most had never driven or worked on cars or trucks before WWII  In WWII the rate was one in every ten Americans could repair a jeep or truck while only one in 1,000 germans could.

Eden makes very valid points also...  the M14 may just have been too much rifle for modern troops... it certainly was for the vietnamese troops we were supplying.. they really liked the m1 carbine before that..

I think that as fewer and fewer Americans grow up with guns (I hope that trend doesn't continue) or as firearms training is lessened... we will see even less Americans able to handle a full power battle rifle..  

lazs

[Fishu]

Originally posted by lazs2
fishu.. just in case no one else caught it... the 8mm round is not more accurate than the 30-06... it is less.   The ought six has a better balistic coeficient and drops less at longer range.
 

Regarding the WWII difference I've heard a bit different opionins, something like the 7.92x57mm was slightly more balanced.
Although the difference between .30-06 and 8mm is probably too small to be relevant in the battlefield.

[Eden]

Originally posted by lazs2
Eden makes very valid points also...  the M14 may just have been too much rifle for modern troops... it certainly was for the vietnamese troops we were supplying.. they really liked the m1 carbine before that..

lazs

Also,  the US no longer has weapons designed for crews (such as the M-3 grease gun - our unit got rid of ours a few months prior to mobilization - at the same time we turned our M1911s in for M-9s   )  No one really expects a handgun to be a weapon of choice on a battlefield but a tank has a small inside (and we need room for the cooler).  The M-16 was designed for use and carry inside or on top of vehicles.  It is short (especially the ever popular M-4 carbine version) and the pistol grip makes it easy to move and manipulate.  The modern army is designed around the mobile force - I.E. Bradleys, LAVs and M-1s and a small, easy to control weapon is necessary.  The M-16 is sort-of a compromise between the SMG and the Battle Rifle.

[cpxxx]

A few years ago the Irish army were replacing their FN's so they evaluated all the available assault rifles. M16, SA80, Galil etc

In the end they went for the Steyr Aug. The Aussies use it too.  I never heard any complaints about it's reliability or other issues. It was said that you could drive a tank over it and still expect it to work. It is still a  5.56 though.


Somehow or other it's probably time for the US military to think about replacing the M16 variant. It's begining to show it's age.

[Eden]

The bullpup design certainly has its advantages.

[lasersailor184]

As well as many disadvantages.

[JBA]

Carlos

In 1967, Hathcock set a record for the longest combat kill with a 0.50 caliber BMG mounting a telescopic sight. The distance was an astounding 2250 meters.

thats 1.42 miles, holy sh,sh,

lets not forget the canadians..

The record stood until 2002, when it was broken during Operation Anaconda when a Canadian three-man sniper team from the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI), set the new record with a shot of 2,430 meters on a Taliban fighter.

1.53 miles

[Eden]

There is some great video of those Canadian Sniper teams in action (from the spotter's viewpoint).  I forget the link (a google search for 50 Cal Sniper should find it).

Just be warned that these are pretty graphic.  A .50 caliber is a devastating weapon (imagine a lead disc the size of a soup bowl traveling through your body at an unimaginable rate of speed).

[Boroda]

Originally posted by NUKE
I don't rememer anyone calling "communist lies" or even anyone who didn't see burning M1s on the news

I posted it about 12 hours before it was in Western news. AFAIR it was a Lybian channel, my friend tuned to it after F1 race.

Originally posted by NUKE
That reminds me of the time US forces entered the center of Baghdad, and you didn't believe it, saying that the Russian reporters couldn't find any of them  

I only quoted Russian reporters who saw "soldiers in nazi-like hemets" on the other side of the river.

Should I search for that threads?

Originally posted by NUKE
And Boroda, if you were able to see something on SAT tv, then I'm sure people here saw the same things. Contrary to popular belief, the US does not only have CNN and FOX news.

Try to smoke Geography. Sattelites that transmit to Europe (and Eastern hemisphere in general) can't be "seen" from the US. Arabs don't buy channels on the sattelites that broadcast over the US. Chinese buy transponders on almost every sattelite, so you can always tune to CCTV channels for free from anywhere, Arabs are not that devoted and Russians are not that smart. I mean that Russian channels on sattelites are usually encrypted, it's absolutely stupid IMHO. Even Ukrainians have several good Russian-language channels that are free, while our "great minds" try to extort money for viewing government TV.

[Gman]

That Canadian sniper is my partner who works for Triple canopy's former roomate.

As for the endless 5.56/9mm vs 7.62/.45 debate, my partner in my private military company here who is currently stringing out to TC in Iraq has shot numerous people with 5.56, and a couple with 9mm, with most of these shots resulting in immediate incapacitation and then death.  SHOT PLACEMENT + Blended metal ammunition (still semi/sorta classified I suppose) = massive trauma as well as armor penetration capability unlike the world has seen in small arms.

He's emptied his ready-gun bag, which is ten magazines, and shot many of the mags in his load bearing equipment, and has yet to have a malfuntion in his M4.  Same goes for the M249's.  I think the reason you see such a disparity in the reliability and lethality of the 16/m4/5.56 between private contractors and regular army is that the army/marines are out in the dust and dirt a LOT more, and their accuracy is usually some percentage points behind that of the special operations community, whose members comprise large numbers of the private companies ranks.

My personal rifle is a Socom Springfield M1a, basically a cut down m14 with a rail system and other crap.  I'd prefer to shoot my Valtro as a sidearm, but the two companies I do work for use the Glock 19, which have proven to be ultra reliable (with ultra gay triggers) in the desert, and the Sig226, which, obviously since I'm instructor for Sig, I swear by.  What I'm saying is don't shoot the messenger as I prefer .45 and 7.62 myself, BUT 5.56/9mm is proving plenty lethal in Iraq.  I'll link an article a guy from Blackwater that I know wrote specificaly about this issue once my canadian gun site is back up.

[FUNKED1]

Snopes that thing.  Stuff like this does not inspire confidence...

The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light
machine gun.

That would be like a "WW2 Fighter Ace" writing an email about the P-53 Mustang turboprop...