Author Topic: The 2nd Amendment  (Read 1869 times)

Offline Toad

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The 2nd Amendment
« on: August 08, 2000, 08:59:00 AM »
We talked about having a rational discussion of America's gun control laws in another thread.

IMHO, that discussion has to start with a clear understanding of how we got to where we are. The "start" is the Second Amendment. To those on one side of this issue, it is a clear authorization to have firearms. To those on the other side, it's an outdated relic that doesn't mean what it appears to say.

In any event, our Constitution can be changed. So before we even start the heated part of the discussion, let's all understand that there IS and ALWAYS HAS BEEN a legal, Constitutional way to resolve this issue.

Here it is: <I've clipped some of the text but the whole thing is available at: http://www.nara.gov/fedreg/amdhome.html>

The Constitutional Amendment Process

The authority to amend the Constitution of the United States is derived from Article V of the Constitution. After Congress proposes an amendment, the Archivist of the United States, who heads the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), is charged with responsibility for administering the ratification process under the provisions of 1 U.S.C. 106b.....

The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures. None of the 27 amendments to the Constitution have been proposed by constitutional convention. The Congress proposes an amendment in the form of a joint resolution. Since the President does not have a constitutional role in the amendment process, the joint resolution does not go to the White House for signature or approval. ...

The Archivist submits the proposed amendment to the States for their consideration by sending a letter of notification to each Governor along with the informational material prepared by the OFR. The Governors then formally submit the amendment to their State legislatures....When a State ratifies a proposed amendment, it sends the Archivist an original or certified copy of the State action, which is immediately conveyed to the Director of the Federal Register. The OFR examines ratification documents for facial legal sufficiency and an authenticating signature. If the documents are found to be in good order, the Director acknowledges receipt and maintains custody of them. ...

A proposed amendment becomes part of the Constitution as soon as it is ratified by three-fourths of the States (38 of 50 States...

So, all the long while this debate has gone on, those opposing 2nd Amendment rights have had this option open to them. They have never chosen to excercise it, probably because they realistically don't have a "snowball's chance in h*ll" of getting 2/3 of the House and Senate to modify the 2nd Amendment to their liking, which IMHO basically would be to have it totally removed from the Constitution.  

As a side note, our Founders obviously intended amending the Constitution to be a long, difficult process. These provisions were written when news traveled by horseback or sail and when neither the US Congress nor the State Legislatures were in session on a year-round basis.

Thus, they HAD to know and intend that amending the Constitution would be the work of years, not days/weeks/months. By the time an amendment was proposed, enough support was gathered to get it approved by 2/3 of the US Congress, send it out by horseback to the State Legistlatures that might not meet for almost a year, then discuss it for a year or more, PLUS the requirement that 3/4 of the States approve...it's pretty clear that they didn't intend for the "fad of the moment" to have an effect on what they struggled to achieve in the Revolution.

So that's how it's done. Change is possible, but not easy. It's not SUPPOSED to be easy. Our founders had the gall to believe they pretty well "got it right the first time" and made it difficult for their squabbling children to mess up the inheritance.    

Next Up: The 2nd Amendment itself. What does it really say and how can so many people interpet it differently? What did the Founders say about it?

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-08-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Ripsnort

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2000, 09:36:00 AM »
Sour sent this to me (Thanks Sour), thought it would be a good place for it:


"Winning The Cultural War"
Speech by Charlton Heston
Harvard Law School Forum
February 16, 1999
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE SPEECH

I remember my son, when he was five, explaining to his kindergarten
class what his father did for a living.  'My Daddy,' he said,
'pretends to be people.'

There have been quite a few of them.  Prophets from the Old and New
Testaments, a couple of Christian saints, generals of various
nationalities and different centuries, several kings, three American
presidents, a French cardinal and two geniuses, including Michelangelo.

If you want the ceiling re-painted I'll do my best.  There always seems
to be a lot of different fellows up here.  I'm never sure which one of
them gets to talk.  Right now, I guess I'm the guy.

As I pondered our visit tonight it struck me:  if my Creator gave me
the gift to connect you with the hearts and minds of those great men,
then I want to use that same gift now to re-connect you with your own
sense of liberty ... your own freedom of thought ... your own compass
for what is right.

Dedicating the memorial at Gettysburg, Abraham Lincoln said of America,
'We are now engaged in a great Civil War, testing whether this nation
or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure.'

Those words are true again.  I believe that we are again engaged in a
great civil war, a cultural war that's about to hijack your birthright
to think and say what resides in your heart.  I fear you no longer trust
the pulsing lifeblood of liberty inside you ... the stuff that made this
country rise from wilderness into the miracle that it is.

Let me back up.  About a year ago I became president of the National
Rifle Association, which protects the right to keep and bear arms.  I
ran for office, I was elected, and now I serve ... I serve as a moving
target for the media who've called me everything from 'ridiculous' and
'duped' to a 'brain-injured, senile, crazy old man'.  I know ... I'm
pretty old ...but I sure (thank the Lord) ain't senile.

As I have stood in the crosshairs of those who target Second Amendment
freedoms, I've realized that firearms are not the only issue.  No, it's
much, much bigger than that.  I've come to understand that a cultural
war is raging across our land, in which, with Orwellian fervor, certain
acceptable thoughts and speech are mandated.

For example, I marched for civil rights with Dr. King in 1963 -- long
before Hollywood found it fashionable.  But when I told an audience
last year that white pride is just as valid as black pride or red pride
or anyone else's pride, they called me a racist.

I've worked with brilliantly talented homosexuals all my life.  But
when I told an audience that gay rights should extend no further than
your rights or my rights, I was called a homophobe.

I served in World War II against the Axis powers.  But during a speech,
when I drew an analogy between singling out innocent Jews and singling
out innocent gun owners, I was called an anti-Semite.

Everyone I know knows I would never raise a closed fist against my
country.  But when I asked an audience to oppose this cultural
persecution, I was compared to Timothy McVeigh.

From Time magazine to friends and colleagues, they're essentially
saying, 'Chuck, how dare you speak your mind.  You are using language
not authorized for public consumption!'

But I am not afraid.  If Americans believed in political correctness,
we'd still be King George's boys -- subjects bound to the British crown.

In his book, 'The End of Sanity,' Martin Gross writes that 'blatantly
irrational behavior is rapidly being established as the norm in almost
every area of human endeavor.  There seem to be new customs, new rules,
new anti-intellectual theories regularly foisted on us from every
direction.  Underneath, the nation is roiling.  Americans know
something, without a name is undermining the nation, turning the mind
mushy when it comes to separating truth from falsehood and right from
wrong.  And they don't like it.'

Let me read a few examples.  At Antioch college in Ohio, young men
seeking intimacy with a coed must get verbal permission at each step
of the process from kissing to petting to final copulation ... all
clearly spelled out in a printed college directive.

In New Jersey, despite the death of several patients nationwide who had
been infected by dentists who had concealed their AIDS --- the state
commissioner announced that health providers who are HIV-positive need
not ... need not ... tell their patients that they are infected.

At William and Mary, students tried to change the name of the school
team 'The Tribe' because it was supposedly insulting to local Indians,
only to learn that authentic Virginia chiefs truly like the name.

In San Francisco, city fathers passed an ordinance protecting the
rights of transvestites to cross-dress on the job, and for transsexuals
to have separate toilet facilities while undergoing sex change surgery.

In New York City, kids who don't speak a word of Spanish have been
placed in bilingual classes to learn their three R's in Spanish solely
because their last names sound Hispanic.

At the University of Pennsylvania, in a state where thousands died at
Gettysburg opposing slavery, the president of that college officially
set up segregated dormitory space for black students.

Yeah, I know ... that's out of bounds now.  Dr. King said 'Negroes.'
Jimmy Baldwin and most of us on the March said 'black.'  But it's a
no-no now.  For me, hyphenated identities are awkward ... particularly
'Native-American.'  I'm a Native American, for God's sake.  I also
happen to be a blood-initiated brother of the Miniconjou Sioux.  On my
wife's side, my grandson is a thirteenth generation Native American ...
with a capital letter on 'American.'

Finally, just last month ... David Howard, head of the Washington DC.
Office of Public Advocate, used the word 'niggardly' while talking to
colleagues about budgetary matters.  Of course, 'niggardly' means
stingy or scanty.  But within days Howard was forced to publicly
apologize and resign.

As columnist Tony Snow wrote:  'David Howard got fired because some
people in public employ were morons who:  (a) didn't know the meaning
of 'niggardly,' (b) didn't know how to use a dictionary to discover the
meaning, and (c) actually demanded that he apologize for their
ignorance.'

What does all of this mean?  It means that telling us what to think has
evolved into telling us what to say, so telling us what to do can't be
far behind.  Before you claim to be a champion of free thought, tell me:
Why did political correctness originate on America's campuses?  And why
do you continue to tolerate it?  Why do you, who're supposed to debate
ideas, surrender to their suppression?

Let's be honest.  Who here thinks your professors can say what they
really believe?  It scares me to death, and should scare you too, that the
superstition of political correctness rules the halls of reason.

You are the best and the brightest.  You, here in the fertile cradle of
American academia, here in the castle of learning on the Charles River,
you are the cream.  But I submit that you, and your counterparts across
the land, are the most socially conformed and politically silenced
generation since Concord Bridge.

And as long as you validate that ... and abide it ... you are -- by
your grandfathers' standards -- cowards.  Here's another example.  Right
now at more than one major university, Second Amendment scholars and
researchers are being told to shut up about their findings or they'll
lose their jobs. Why?  Because their research findings would undermine
big-city mayor's pending lawsuits that seek to extort hundreds of millions
of dollars from firearm manufacturers.

I don't care what you think about guns.  But if you are not shocked at
that, I am shocked at you.  Who will guard the raw material of
unfettered ideas, if not you?  Who will defend the core value of
academia, if you supposed soldiers of free thought and expression lay
down your arms and plead, 'Don't shoot me.'

If you talk about race, it does not make you a racist.  If you see
distinctions between the genders, it does not make you a sexist.  If
you think critically about a denomination, it does not make you
anti-religion. If you accept but don't celebrate homosexuality, it does
not make you a homophobe.

Don't let America's universities continue to serve as incubators for
this rampant epidemic of new McCarthyism.  But what can you do?  How can
anyone prevail against such pervasive social subjugation?

The answer's been here all along.  I learned it 36 years ago, on the
steps of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, DC, standing with Dr.
Martin Luther King and two hundred thousand people.

You simply ... disobey.  Peaceably, yes.  Respectfully, of course.
Nonviolently, absolutely.  But when told how to think or what to say or
how to behave, we don't.  We disobey social protocol that stifles and
stigmatizes personal freedom.

I learned the awesome power of disobedience from Dr. King ... who
learned it from Gandhi, and Thoreau, and Jesus, and every other
great man who led those in the right against those with the might.

Disobedience is in our DNA.  We feel innate kinship with that
Disobedient spirit that tossed tea into Boston Harbor, that sent
Thoreau to jail, that refused to sit in the back of the bus, that
protested a war in Viet Nam.

In that same spirit, I am asking you to disavow cultural correctness
with massive disobedience of rogue authority, social directives and
onerous laws that weaken personal freedom.

But be careful ... it hurts.  Disobedience demands that you put
yourself at risk.  Dr. King stood on lots of balconies.  You must be
willing to be humiliated ... to endure the modern-day equivalent of
the police dogs at Montgomery and the water cannons at Selma.  You
must be willing to experience discomfort.  I'm not complaining, but
my own decades of social activism have taken their toll on me.  Let
me tell you a story.

A few years back, I heard about a rapper named Ice-T who was selling a
CD called 'Cop Killer' celebrating ambushing and murdering police
officers. It was being marketed by none other than Time/Warner, the
biggest entertainment conglomerate in the world.  Police across the
country were outraged.  Rightfully so -- at least one had been
murdered.  But Time/Warner was stonewalling because the CD was a
cash cow for them, and the media were tiptoeing around it because the
rapper was black.  I heard Time/Warner had a stockholders meeting
scheduled in Beverly Hills.  I owned some shares at the time, so I
decided to attend.

What I did there was against the advice of my family and colleagues.  I
asked for the floor.  To a hushed room of a thousand average American
stockholders, I simply read the full lyrics of 'Cop Killer'-every
vicious, vulgar, instructional word.

I GOT MY 12 GAUGE SAWED OFF
I GOT MY HEADLIGHTS TURNED OFF
I'M ABOUT TO BUST SOME SHOTS OFF
I'M ABOUT TO DUST SOME COPS OFF...EEEE

It got worse, a lot worse.  I won't read the rest of it to you.  But
trust me, the room was a sea of shocked, frozen, blanched faces.  The
Time/Warner executives squirmed in their chairs and stared at their
shoes. They hated me for that.  Then I delivered another volley of sick
lyric brimming with racist filth, where Ice-T fantasizes about
sodomizing two 12-year old nieces of Al and Tipper Gore.  SHE PUSHED
HER BUTT AGAINST MY ....'

Well, I won't do to you here what I did to them.  Let's just say I left
the room in echoing silence.  When I read the lyrics to the waiting
press corps, one of them said, 'We can't print that.'  'I know,' I
replied, 'but Time/Warner is selling it.'

Two months later, Time/Warner terminated Ice-T's contract.  I'll never
be offered another film by Warners, or get a good review from Time
magazine. But disobedience means you must be willing to act, not just
talk.

When a mugger sues his elderly victim for defending herself ... jam the
switchboard of the district attorney's office.  When your university is
pressured to lower standards until 80% of the students graduate with
honors ... choke the halls of the board of regents .

When an 8-year-old boy pecks a girl's cheek on the playground and gets
hauled into court for sexual harassment ... march on that school and
block its doorways.

When someone you elected is seduced by political power and betrays you
... petition them, oust them, banish them.

When Time magazine's cover portrays millennium nuts as deranged, crazy
Christians holding a cross as it did last month ... boycott their
magazine and the products it advertises.

So that this nation may long endure, I urge you to follow in the
hallowed footsteps of the great disobediences of history that freed
exiles, founded religions, defeated tyrants, and yes, in the hands of
an aroused rabble in arms and a few great men, by God's grace, built
this country.

If Dr. King were here, I think he would agree.

Thank you.



Offline blur

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2000, 11:33:00 AM »
Heston cleverly ties Martin Luther King in with the battle over Second Amendment rights then tries to censor the First Amendment rights of rapper Ice-T.

Same old story, stand up for what's right as long as it's the "right" issue.

Freedom's a tough gig.

POP QUIZ:
What exactly did Martin Luther King die of?

Offline Toad

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2000, 11:50:00 AM »
Blur,

At the risk of diverting this thread from it's topic...the 2nd, not the 1st   although all are inextricably linked IMHO....

So tell me...Heston was a Time/Warner stockholder and attend a somewhat "public stockholder's meeting"...

Did he have the right as a stockholder or under the 1st Amendment, to, in his own words....

"I simply read the full lyrics of 'Cop Killer'-every
vicious, vulgar, instructional word.

Then I delivered another volley of sick
lyric brimming with racist filth, where Ice-T fantasizes about
sodomizing two 12-year old nieces of Al and Tipper Gore.

When I read the lyrics to the waiting
press corps, one of them said, 'We can't print that.' 'I know,' I
replied, 'but Time/Warner is selling it.'"


Or did only Ice-T have 1st Amendment rights?

Freedom's a tough gig. Indeed.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline blur

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2000, 01:21:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:

<snip>
Did he have the right as a stockholder or under the 1st Amendment, to, in his own words....
<snip>


Yes he does indeed. As long as I can boycott the local TV station to stop the transmission of his speech!

What a minute, we're getting stuck in some kind of infinite First Amendment loop.  

Maybe it's just me but I find humor in the fact that the president of the National Rifle Association associates his cause with an individual who was killed by a ……you guessed it….....Rifle!  

Offline Toad

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2000, 02:16:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by blur:
As long as I can boycott the local TV station to stop the transmission of his speech!

Yep!

"First Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Is this a great place or what?  

Gotta be careful though...that bold part is bound to draw some comment over recent Supreme Court decisions.  

I re-read that post twice, but I fail to see where Heston relates his earier association with Dr. King to Heston's "cause", the NRA.

What I DO see is an attempt to relate the attempt by some to silence those who don't agree to the Civil Disobedience of Dr. King.

"You simply ... disobey. Peaceably, yes. Respectfully, of course.
Nonviolently, absolutely. But when told how to think or what to say or
how to behave, we don't. We disobey social protocol that stifles and
stigmatizes personal freedom.

I learned the awesome power of disobedience from Dr. King ... who
learned it from Gandhi, and Thoreau, and Jesus, and every other
great man who led those in the right against those with the might."

I think eventually this thread will turn to that subject...the right of all to have their views aired and considered.  

But next up.....what does the 2nd Amendment actually say? Stay tuned!  
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Sorrow[S=A]

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2000, 08:33:00 PM »
popquiz answer:

Lead poisoning.

Offline Ghosth

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2000, 01:41:00 AM »
Preach on Brother Toad!


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Offline leonid

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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2000, 03:40:00 AM »
So how is Heston?  He out of rehab yet for alcohol?

 
ingame: Raz

Offline easymo

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2000, 07:12:00 AM »
 Im embarrassed to admit, when I thought about it at all, I thought Mr. Heston was just some kind of gun nut. Fell for the ol liberal press bull toejam. Thanks for the wake up rip. I got an attatude ajustment about Mr. Heston.

Offline CavemanJ

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2000, 08:58:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by easymo:
Im embarrassed to admit, when I thought about it at all, I thought Mr. Heston was just some kind of gun nut. Fell for the ol liberal press bull toejam. Thanks for the wake up rip. I got an attatude ajustment about Mr. Heston.

Ye have been SAVED!!!

Even if ya dinnae like guns, the fight over the 2nd amendment is just a means to an end, and that speech serves nicely as a wakeup call.  Gonna have to print it and frame it  

Offline StSanta

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2000, 10:12:00 AM »
 
Quote
Maybe it's just me but I find humor in the fact that the president of the National Rifle Association associates his cause with an individual who was killed by a ……you guessed it….....Rifle!

Ice T is dead? DAMMO!

I sorta liked him in Johnny Mnenonic (spelling). Sure, his early records where crap, and the lyrics infantile, but he seemed to have matured a bit as he started making movies.

Well, there's another reason I am not a rap superstar  

Heh, but I am quite sure you are referring to Luther King. ;D

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[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 08-09-2000).]

Offline Suave1

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2000, 11:03:00 AM »
And I thought Heston was just a figurehead . Thanks for posting the speech Rip .

Offline AKDejaVu

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2000, 11:41:00 AM »
 
Quote
Maybe it's just me but I find humor in the fact that the president of the National Rifle Association associates his cause with an individual who was killed by a ……you guessed it….....Rifle!

Maybe Mr. Heston believes that Martin Luther King Jr. was killed by a person.  Maybe he believes that additional gun laws would do nothing to keep guns out of the hands of sick dimented %$$%@ like the individual that shot Mr. King.  Maybe he believes that tampering with the second ammendment would open a pandora's box with the potential to destroy some of the basic principles this country was founded on.

I do... and I'm not a member of the NRA.

AKDejaVu

[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 08-09-2000).]

Offline AKDejaVu

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The 2nd Amendment
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2000, 11:49:00 AM »
Doh!


[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 08-09-2000).]