Author Topic: P-51D .50 cal problems  (Read 1118 times)

Offline Sable

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P-51D .50 cal problems
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2005, 02:37:21 PM »
A .50bmg is going to punch .5" holes in metal structures that it can penetrate.  If one of those passes through the aluminum skin of the wing without striking a fuel tank, or a gun etc. it is really nothing more then a pinsalamander to the airplane.  In real life, in order to destroy airplanes, guns like the .50 cal relied on striking critical structures within the airplane - fuel tanks, oil lines, radiators and coolant lines, engines, pilots, control cables etc.  Of course, airplane designers did their best to protect these things.  They put armor on the back of the pilots seat, installed self sealing fuel tanks etc.

I have a copy of an RAF test of vulnerability of the Bf109.  They shot .303, .50, and 20mm rounds at it from a variety of angles.  They found that from dead 6, the .50 couldn't penetrate the pilots armor at 100 yards because it was passing through the fueselage structures and the gas tank before it got there.  Since the fuel tanks were self sealing they could withstand a few individual hits without causing major leaks.  The engine was almost impossible to damage from this angle, because any strikes to it were at such a low angle of incidence they would just ricochet off.  The radiators were very vulnerable however, and any strikes to them resulted in leaks which would cause the engine to overheat in a matter of minutes.  So in order to shoot one down from that angle, you had to either score a hit on the radiator, or enough fueselage strikes that either the gas tank started leaking and caught fire, or the pilot's armor failed from being battered by enough hits - this meant getting close and hitting them with a LOT of bullets.

Interestingly, the 20mm cannons weren't much different - the HE rounds were better against the fuel tank but still not a 1 hit guarantee of fire, and the AP rounds were better at penetrating the pilots armor.  The causes of the airplane going down were the same - it just required fewer rounds to do it.

Of course from different angles the story changed - at higher deflection angles the pilot and engine were now more vulnerable, and a larger cross-section of the radiator was visible as well, now you had to make a much more difficult deflection shot to hit the target to begin with.  

Now in AH we have more of a "hit point" oriented system where planes primarily get shot down by having big pieces sawed off (wings, tails etc).  But the end result seems to be about the same - if you get in close and score a solid 1-2 second burst, it's usually a kill.  The cannons generally kill more quickly.

Offline nirvana

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P-51D .50 cal problems
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2005, 05:11:05 PM »
I had a pony blow apart all 3 of my bombers in 3 passes last night, granted I suck at gunning in bombers cause it kills my FR but dang.  Concentrated hits.
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Offline Slash27

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P-51D .50 cal problems
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2005, 05:25:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Iceman24
On the same note the 20mm needs to be upped as well, a 20mm has an explosive in it, almost equal to a hand grenade, its funny when I hit a plane with 10 ea 20mm's and its still flyin... I know modern day 20mm's and .50cals will be better and more accurate, but a 20mm will make about a 3-5' exit hole on a Bradly tank, I know a Bradly tank doesnt have allot of armour, but it definately has more than the AC in AH2.



Keep in mind there are several different 20 mm cannon represented in AH2. A 20mm Hispano packs a helluva alot more punch than a Type 99 20 mm. I would like to know how the Hispano round compares to the round used in the present day 20mm Vulcan cannon.

Offline EagleEyes

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P-51D .50 cal problems
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2005, 10:40:01 PM »
I can admit when i am wrong, and i was wrong guys!  This morning i flew my P-51D and attacked a flight of B-24s came in going almost 500 mph and closed to within 400 yrds and opened fire.  Bomber blew up like a mother trucker!  Came around and did the same thing on the sec pass.  Have my convergence set to 300.  Guess the P-51D isnt a much of a turn fighter, zoom and boom!

<>
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Offline TequilaChaser

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P-51D .50 cal problems
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2005, 11:40:40 PM »
P51D is not a turn n' Burn Plane, although their are some that can and will show you differently, it is more suited for Energy Fighting or the Bored N Zoomed type of fighting.

as for different Platform pertaining to 50 cal guns. I have much better success using the 50s in the F4U-1 and F4U-1d or F6f over the P51D , I find the F4U  or F6f has a much more stable gun platform and am able to land hits easier.

My new found love for the P40E has also show to have a very stable gun platform. If I am flying a P51D I have to be sure to unload my G's ( let go of stick / stable out my flight ) before I shoot. If I am in a turn and try to fire I miss most of the time. Unloading before shooting is key for me in the P51 planes.

Everyone has their prefered shot, I prefer to use crossing and/or deflection shots since I fly mostly 50 cal mounted planes,  dead 6 shots are somewhat a waste of time for me when flying planes with 50 cal.     YMMV

as for convergence that is a preference for each individual, you hear some say 200, 225, 250 300 or 400 etc......I have always prefered 350 for all 50 cal mounted weapons, flying the 38  I prefer 350 for the 50s and 400 for the Cannon.

I do not find the hitting power of the 50s differ from 1 plane to the next though, it is all in the way the guns are mounted and how stable the platform is........
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Offline Balsy

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P-51D .50 cal problems
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2005, 05:51:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Well, I don't know you sir :)

But I do know that Fish is a deadly shot, and a great pilot to fly with.  It sounds like some kind of server problem...

Although, in my VERY humble opinion, the 50s are a bit undermodeled on  the fighters.  That may be because with 30 of them on a buff box set, they are uber weapons.  It may be a game play balance thingie that reduces the fighters 50 cal damage???

I think I would fly the F4U-1 a lot more if the 50s were more effective than just being assist makers.

The game play does favor cannons, and I am not sure there is really a cure for that though.  I sure don't have one :(


I fly the f4u1 and routinely get 4-6 kills per run, sometimes 2-3 of which are bombers.

Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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P-51D .50 cal problems
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2005, 07:34:26 AM »
450 to 525 range is best for all situations.

At 600-800 your bullets will still hit a target's wing tips "if aimed at hull"
under 400 and everything hits dead on.
also try seting 4 of the guns to one range "say 450", and another set to  a longer range "600".

use the x2 .50's to get a range of your target,then close in and hammer down with the other x4 .50's
This will always resault in some type of combat damage.
Always bust fire at your target unless you have him in a solid target bead, otherwise your wasteing ammo.

I find three quick gun busts will do more to a target than 3 seconds of full fire.
I dunno why, its just the way it is.




Also, didnt the p51 "or other planes too" have a option of fireing each gun diffrently?
like all three on the left wing, then all three on the right?
then all six at the same time, then a sucession of 1 gun bullet per gun, per wing. "1,2,3,4,5,6" Or "1-3,4-6" "full left wing salvo, then right wing salvo" or all "6" "normal"

I recall some gun cams where you could clearly see "just the left wing guns" fireing then a few seconds later just the right wing guns fireing,then the pilot would hammer down and all guns would shoot.
maby it was a switch on the dash changeing gun fireing syncs, or weapon group's "Shrugs"
Intell much apreciated.
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