Author Topic: Democrats Want to Lose another war  (Read 3394 times)

Offline Thrawn

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Democrats Want to Lose another war
« Reply #165 on: November 24, 2005, 10:38:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
The PLAN is for Iraq forces to be able to guard their own squealing country---takes quite some time to build a COMPETENT army,



Do you believe that was the PLAN from the beginning?

Offline Holden McGroin

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Democrats Want to Lose another war
« Reply #166 on: November 24, 2005, 10:45:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Do you believe that was the PLAN from the beginning?


As opposed to permanent occupation and colonization? yes.
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Offline Tilt

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrats Want to Lose another war
« Reply #167 on: November 24, 2005, 11:02:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
By the way, without using google, can you tell me who said this below, and when they said it?
"Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons...................



Nice pic of North America.............

re quote dunno Bush, Blair or Moore? it makes no difference to the actuality...............

Blair followed Bush in on a lie ....... the only thing uncertain is their complicity............

Not one of the reasons given for the invasion (other than SH is a nasty man) have since been validated...............

I hope we do right by Iraq and leave it  as this peaceful  state enjoying the fruits of democracy and freedom................. that is what was promiced as I remember........that will be the victory.

I certainly would not measure success by the number of sanitation plants Cheney's chronies have had contracts for................

and hopefully a better victory than Afghanistan.......... where the elected president is jokingly refered to as the Mayor of Kabul still protected by US body guards(cant trust afghan ones) and afraid to leave his house.........where the war lords sponsored to kick out the Taliban rule their regions with the AK 45 and are now the biggest poppy growers in the world. Where the UK just sent in an extra 4000 troops........why?

Well guess who was pulling out whilst the focus is elsewhere?

Where OBL or whats left of his group still hide and where the Taliban still move between Afghanistan and Pakistan............

will this be the victory for Iraq? will this be the shining example of western democracy and freedom lived out in the middle east?  I hope not......

Seems that was the talk before the invasion............the talk now is of a different nature..............
Ludere Vincere

Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrats Want to Lose another war
« Reply #168 on: November 24, 2005, 11:23:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
Blair followed Bush in on a lie ....... the only thing uncertain is their complicity............


A lie is a knowing intent to present falsehoods as the truth.  One can be wrong about the facts of a situation and still not be a liar.

Whether Bush/Blair lied about the facts (WMDs) or were wrong is presently a matter of opinion and conjecture, not fact.  IIRC no country objected to the war based on intelligence, only that the policy of sanctions and inspections had not been given enough time.  Of course I could be wrong about that, but I am not lying.  

Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
Not one of the reasons given for the invasion (other than SH is a nasty man) have since been validated...............


Three reasons pretty much accepted as ture by most:
Quote
excerpt from House Joint Resolution 114 RH (Oct 2002)

Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people;

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States, including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council;



I don't know if the '93 assassination attempt has been proven, but shooting at air patrols sure has.
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Offline Gunslinger

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Democrats Want to Lose another war
« Reply #169 on: November 24, 2005, 11:25:31 AM »
The Crying Game
So near in Iraq, so far at home.


"The president misled us." "Still no WMDs." "If I had only known then what I do now…"

This is the intellectual level of Democratic wartime criticism about the Bush administration as we near the third Iraqi election — the one that will finally give faces to the first truly elected parliamentary government in the Arab world.

So what is behind this crying game at home — when we are so close to achieving our goals abroad?

Bad polls and far-worse casualties. With over 2,000 American dead in Iraq, the politicians think their own brilliant three-week war was ruined by George Bush’s 32-month failed reconstruction.

But the Democratic establishment’s anger is even more complicated than that since it is not yet quite sure of the mood of the fickle American people.

True, from the very beginning a small group of leftists has done its best to mischaracterize the effort to remove Saddam Hussein as some sort of Halliburton, “no-blood-for oil,” “Bush lied/thousands died,” “neocon” war “for Israel.” But despite the occasional auxiliary efforts of the elite press, until now there were really no takers in the mainstream Democratic party for the vehement antiwar crowd’s slander for at least three reasons.

One was the crazies. By that I mean that the Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore, and Cindy Sheehan factions have a propensity to go lunatic and say or do anything — like shamefully praising the murdering terrorists who blow apart Iraqi women and children and U.S. soldiers as "Minutemen,” or calling the president of the United States “the world’s greatest terrorist.”

A sanctimonious Jimmy Carter may sit next to the buffoonish Michael Moore at the Democratic Convention in VIP seats, but the inclusion of his name with Rep. John Murtha’s is still apparently considered by liberals to be an outright slander. So up until now invoking Bush as a "liar" and our enemies as "heroes" was considered over the top.

Two, the Democratic left wing was wrong on the Cold War and mostly wrong on Gulf War I. With minorities in the Congress, fearful that they might never again be trusted on national security, and cognizant that both Bill Clinton’s campaign against Milosevic and George Bush’s war against the Taliban had been relatively cost-free, they outdid themselves in calling for invasion of Iraq.

Go back and read any of the statements of John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, or Jay Rockefeller about the dangers of Saddam Hussein and the need to take him out. Only then can you understand why the U.S. Senate voted overwhelmingly, with a strong Democratic majority, to authorize a war.

So up until now, Democrats had an embarrassing paper trail that in the era of Google searches made it hard to claim that the war was Bush’s alone and not their own. Indeed, as long as casualties were considered "tolerable" and the polls stable, most Democrats continued to talk in accordance with their own past votes and wanted to bask in the success of ending the Hussein nightmare.

Three, most Democrats knew the history of the George McGovern pullout campaign of 1972 that ended in disaster for the party at large. It just isn’t smart to lose American wars by cutting out — unless you have a Watergate for cover. Yet so far not outing a CIA employee who was not a covert agent does not make a scandal.

For all the media pizzazz about the peace candidate Howard Dean, the good Dr. had not a prayer of winning either the nomination or the presidency. Indeed, his tenure as chairman of the Democratic party has been a Republican godsend, since, like McGovern, he has the propensity in a single moment of heartfelt sincerity to scare the hell out of the American people.

Thus the savvy strategy as the casualties grew was to quibble, ankle-bite, and offer empty platitudes like “Get the U.N. back there,” “Get NATO in,” and “Get the Arab League on board,” rather than offering an ad hoc alternative plan of leaving Iraq in the style of Vietnam, Lebanon, or Mogadishu.

Two of those reservations have now vanished, as George Bush’s flight suit; the museum looting; Saddam’s public dental exam; the embalming of the Hussein boys; naked pictures from Abu Ghraib; a supposedly flushed Koran in Guantanamo Bay; rants on the Senate floor; the Scooter Libby indictment; comparisons of the U.S. military to Saddam Hussein; Nazi Germany; Stalin; and Pol Pot; the broadsides of Joe Wilson; Richard Clarke; General Anthony Zinni; Brent Scowcroft; Lawrence Wilkerson, et al.; lies that our soldiers targeted Western journalists; the meae culpae of prominent former war supporters from Francis Fukuyama to George Packer; white phosphorus; leaks about supposed CIA torture prisons abroad — along with mostly silence from the embattled administration and U.S. combat dead exceeding 2,000 — have changed the political calculus.

So Democrats have overcome two caveats. First, they are beginning to sound like Michael Moore while distancing themselves from Michael Moore. Second, they have come up with a clever escape ploy from their own previous rhetoric. Yes, they voted for the war, but the intelligence they had was “not the same” as the president’s. And besides, they were merely senators who fund wars, while George Bush was the commander-in-chief who directs them. “He started it — not us” may be the stuff of errant boys on the playground, but it apparently offers a way out of past embarrassing speeches and votes. Even more clever, they now claim that voting “to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq” in October 2002 is not quite the same as actually authorizing a war in March 2003.

Consequently, the Democrats are now inching toward jettisoning their final reservation and embracing the Howard Dean cut-and-run position. Still, shrewd pros like a Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Dianne Feinstein, or Chuck Schumer are not quite there yet for two other understandable worries. The polls say Americans are tired of the war, but not yet ready to quit and give up on all that has been achieved, leaving brave Iraqi reformers to ninth-century beheaders and suicide-murderers.

Second, these more astute Democrats are not sure that the Iraqi gambit might not work, especially with the December election coming up, the public trial of Saddam, the growth of the Iraqi security forces, and the changed attitudes in Europe, Jordan, and Lebanon. Many talk a lot about Vietnam circa 1967 but deep down and in silence most have mixed emotions about Saigon 1975.

For now Democrats stammer, sputter, and go the Bush shoulda / coulda route — not quite ready to take the McGovern sharp turn, forever waiting on polls and events on the ground in Iraq, always unsure whether peace and democracy will come before the 2,500th American fatality.

Yet as they hedge — on television praising Congressmen Murtha who advocates withdrawal, but making sure they vote overwhelmingly on the record to reject his advice — they should consider some critical questions.

First, are the metrics of this war in the terrorists’ or our favor? Are the Iraqi security forces growing or shrinking? Are elections postponed or on schedule? Are Europe, Jordan, Lebanon, and others more or less sympathetic to a war against Islamic terrorism in Iraq? Are bin Laden, Zawahiri, and Zarqawi more or less popular or secure after we removed Saddam? Is al Qaeda in a strengthened or weakened position? Is the Arab world more or less receptive to democracy in the Gulf, Egypt, Lebanon, and the West Bank? And is the United States more or less vulnerable to a terrorist attack as we go into our fifth year since September 11?

I ask those questions in all sincerity since the conventional wisdom — compared to the true wisdom and compassion of those valiantly fighting the terrorists under the most impossible of conditions — is that we are losing in Iraq, our enemies are emboldened, and the Arab world has turned against us. But if we forget the banality of New York Times columnists, the admonitions of NPR experts, and the daily rants of a Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, or Al Gore, more sober and street-smart Democrats are in fact not so sure of these answers.

So these wiser ones wait and hedge their wagers. They give full rein to the usefully idiotic and irresponsible in their midst, but make no move yet to undo what thousands of brave American soldiers have accomplished in Iraq.

What exactly is that? Despite acrimony at home, the politics of two national elections and a third on the horizon, and the slander of war crimes and incompetence, those on the battlefield of Iraq have almost pulled off the unthinkable — the restructuring of the politics of the Middle East in less than three years.

And for now that is still a strong hand to bet against.

Offline DREDIOCK

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Democrats Want to Lose another war
« Reply #170 on: November 24, 2005, 12:11:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
The Crying Game
So near in Iraq, so far at home.




Bad polls and far-worse casualties. With over 2,000 American dead in Iraq, the politicians think their own brilliant three-week war was ruined by George Bush’s 32-month failed reconstruction.

 


this is what concerns me about this country.
We as a nation have gotten way too soft, too used to everything happening "right now"

2,000 dead. Yes terrible number very sad 2,000 died.

Still less then what died on the very first day of D-Day
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Gunslinger

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Democrats Want to Lose another war
« Reply #171 on: November 24, 2005, 12:23:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
this is what concerns me about this country.
We as a nation have gotten way too soft, too used to everything happening "right now"

2,000 dead. Yes terrible number very sad 2,000 died.

Still less then what died on the very first day of D-Day


Or compared to any other war of simular duration and scale.  We got real used to the Gulfwar briefing videos of pinpoint accuracy and low body counts.  The evidence is also in Somalia.  Army rangers take casualties and bodys are dragged through the streets but instead of fighting harder the public wants a pull out.  

What's even more sad is many on the left are still "stuck on stupid"  The "neo-con bush lied, no WMDs" argument doesn't hold a thimble of water when compared to actual facts and recent history.  

Yes there are Democrats that want our troops out now with out accomplishing the mission.  This is called wanting to lose.  Even a few republicans have joined in this rant and it is the wrong course for America.  

Yes I will agree that the occupation fuels the inurgancy but we aren't just fighting insurgants there, we are fighting jihadist terrorists and they are desperate.

Just today the King of Jordan called for a war on ISLAMIC militancy.....sorry folks THAT is progress.

Offline Red Tail 444

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Democrats Want to Lose another war
« Reply #172 on: November 28, 2005, 04:43:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shifty
To dissagree with you is not ridiculeing you. In fact in every post you've replied to me, you have questioned my sanity. Above is what I believe , and questions I have for people who love the congressional war bashing. If that makes me nuts....................Okay I'm  bugeyed nuts.

:noid


:aok

Offline Stringer

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Democrats Want to Lose another war
« Reply #173 on: November 28, 2005, 08:35:45 PM »
I very rarely, if ever agree with Nash when I read his posts, but I have to agree with MT and say that his post was well written and very well reasoned, and I find it compelling and he summed my thoughts very well.

I'm registered as an Independent, but I vote mainly along Republican issues.  I wrote-in Powell in '04.

I believe in taking responsibility and I think the Bush Admin., needs to take responsibility.  The Iraq War was optional equipment in this deal.

I thought the Democrats crying about how bad Bush was and how could America be so stupid as to elect him were looking in the wrong direction.  They should have blamed themselves for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in '00 and in '04.  I mean if Bush is so stupid, how can they loose to him?....well, they proved they could by putting up Gore and then Kerry...unbelievable.  What should have been A slam dunk win both times (according to their propoganda), and they blow it.

Well, I feel the same way towards any Republicans who blame Democrats for the how mis-managed this has become.  And I don't just mean the prosecution of the war itself, but also in the handling of the state-side dealing with the citizens spin as well.

Offline Gunslinger

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Democrats Want to Lose another war
« Reply #174 on: November 28, 2005, 09:19:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stringer

Well, I feel the same way towards any Republicans who blame Democrats for the how mis-managed this has become.  And I don't just mean the prosecution of the war itself, but also in the handling of the state-side dealing with the citizens spin as well.


In many ways I agree with you.  Bush has been VERY quiet in terms of accepting responsability for failures (even though they ask for it, it wont satisfy his critics) But also failures in not fighting back at some of the "talk" and countering some of the "Bush lied" arguments.

I couldn't begin to tell you how this guy thinks but the only explination I can offer is maybe he doesn't want to give it legitimacy by offering up an reason or a fight.