Lucas to make WWII Air Movie

[Midnight]

Originally posted by Eagler


made in 1942.

Did they loose that battle? 5 guys manning a single .30cal MG, 3 of which are just watching the sky.

There's a lot of old WWII movies that could be remade, but if the only reason we want to see it done is for modern CGI and better looking dogfights, then we're really not paying tribute to the veterens.

[lazs2]

so how many aces did the red tails have?

lazs

[Airscrew]

it would seem they had no aces

99th Fighter Sqn

Edward L. Toppins, 4
Charles B. Hall, 3
Leonard M. Jackson, 3
Clarence W. Allen, 0.5
Willie Ashley, Jr., 1
Charles P. Bailey, 1
Howard L. Baugh, 1
Thomas P. Braswell, 1
William A. Campbell, 1
John W. Davis, 1
Lemuel L. Curtis, 1
Robert W. Dier, 2
Elwood T. Driver, 1
Wilson V. Eagleson, 2
James L. Hall, 1
Clinton B. Mills, 1
Daniel L. Rich, 1
Leon C. Roberts, 1
Lewis C. Smith, 1
Hugh J. White, 1
 
 100th Fighter Sqn

Raul W. Bell, 1
Charles V. Brantley, 1
John F. Briggs, 1
Roscoe C. Browne, 2
Richard W. Hall, 1
Jack D. Hosclaw, 2
Carl E. Johnson, 1
Langdon E. Johnson, 1
Earl R. Lane, 2
Clarence D. Lester, 2
John H. Lyle, 1
Walter J.A. Palmer, 1
George M. Rhodes, Jr., 1
Robert W. Williams, 2
Bertram W. Wilson, Jr. 1  

301st Fighter Sqn

Joseph D. Elsberry, 3
Carl E. Corey, 2
John E. Edwards, 2
James H. Fischer, 1
Frederick D. Funderburg, 2
Alfred M. Gorham, 2
Claude Govan, 1
Thomas W. Jefferson, 2
Jimmy Lanham, 2
Armour G. McDaniel, 1
Walter P. Manning, 1
Harold M. Morris, 1
William S. Price, III, 1
Harold E. Sawyer, 1
Harry T. Stewart, 2
Charles L. White, 2

 302nd Fighter Sqn
Lee A. Archer, 4.5
Wendell O. Pruitt, 3
Roger Romaine, 3
Milton P. Brooks, 1
Charles W. Bussey, 1
Edward C. Gleed, 2
William W. Green, Jr., 2
Weldon K. Groves, 1
William L. Hill, 1
Freddie F. Hutchins, 1
Melvin T. Jackson, 1
Felix J. Kirkpatrick, 1
Charles E. McGee, 1
Luther H. Smith, Jr., 2
Robert H. Smith, 2
William H. Thomas, 1
Hugh S. Warner, 1
Luke J. Weather, Jr., 2
Laurence D. Wilkins, 1

[Airscrew]

http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_tusk.html

A week later the 332nd escorted bombers on a mission against railyards, and Capt. Joseph Elsberry shot down three Fw-190s, the first black pilot to achieve this feat. The next day, July 13, the Group flew its first mission to Ploesti. On the 16th, they met some Italian Macchis (from Mussolini's short-lived, rump state in the North, the Italian Social Republic), and downed two of them. Two days later, July 18, Lt. Clarence 'Lucky' Lester destroyed three German airplanes, and earned a DFC for himself in recognition. This was a big day for the Group, as they claimed 11 e/a destroyed. Lee Archer scored his first that day; a credit which would later be officially changed to a shared kill. (Thus Archer left combat with an official 4.5 kills. It has been speculated that the AAF brass didn't want a Negro ace and the attendant publicity.)

[Airscrew]

Originally posted by cpxxx
Shuckins may be correct, indeed probably is correct. But the 'red tails' had a point to make. Their job was to protect bombers. To do otherwise was to invite criticism. They didn't have the flexibility of other groups.  They would be judged by a special standard and they knew it.  

Despite their achievements and accomplishments, the 99th found continued resistance and prejudice here in the Mediterranean. The CO of the 33rd Fighter Group, Col. William Momyer, complained about the performance of the 99th FS, compared their combat record to White squadrons, alluded to lack of air discipline, and hinted at a lack of aggressiveness. His comparisons overlooked the fact that the 99th did not operate at the front, but was stationed hundreds of miles to the rear. Nor did he mention his exclusion of 99th FS pilots from briefing sessions. But in those days, Blacks were easy targets, and in September of 1943, TIME magazine ran an article that repeated Momyer's accusations. About all the pilots could do was perform their jobs perfectly, and answer their critics with deeds, not words.

[Airscrew]

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Air_Power/tuskegee/AP26.htm

The Airmen continued to cover the Allied invasion of Italy. But they did not have another confirmed kill until the following January, a statistic that upset Colonel Momyer, who reported in September that the 99th lacked discipline, teamwork, and "the aggressiveness and daring for combat that are necessary to be a first class fighting organization." U.S. Army Air Force (USAAF) Chief General Henry "Hap" Arnold investigated the criticisms and found that the 99th had been assigned far from the invasion front, well away from enemy aircraft. It was also a new and inexperienced unit, led by equally inexperienced commanders, unlike novice white flyers who could rely on the experience of veteran leaders. Debate over Momyer’s criticism ended in March 1944 when the USAAF Statistical Control Division reported that from August 1943 to January 1944, the Airmen performed as well as the other P-40 squadrons in the area. Arnold allowed the matter to drop.

[DREDIOCK]

Now. The fact that they didnt have any "officially" recorded aces Does NOT take away from their accomplishments of never having lost a bomber.

The spread out numbers of kills among he pilots, as well as their escort accomplishments in my mind points to and makes my point.

They were well diciplined andworked well together as a team.
To be that well diciplined and work that well together as a team was a direct result of the added training

Now this idea that "because they had something to prove" makes for great propoganda. And maybe the commanding officers used this as a motivational tool during training just like any good coach will try to use something for his team to rally around.
The old "us against the world" method immediately comes to mind

But in combat when the watermelon hits the fan.  Accomplishing the mission is where the training and dicipline kicks in.
But all  those ideals about proving something to those outside of your immediate area surrounding you go out the window.
Your main thought is of keeping yourself and your those around you alive.
And the only ones your even remotely interested in proving anything to is the people on your side in the immediate area.

[Airscrew]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Now. The fact that they didnt have any "officially" recorded aces Does NOT take away from their accomplishments of never having lost a bomber.

I agree

The spread out numbers of kills among he pilots, as well as their escort accomplishments in my mind points to and makes my point.
They were well diciplined andworked well together as a team.

I also agree

Now this idea that "because they had something to prove" makes for great propoganda. And maybe the commanding officers used this as a motivational tool during training just like any good coach will try to use something for his team to rally around.
The old "us against the world" method immediately comes to mind

on this part I disagree

Because they were black, because they werent accepted, because as noted in the material I posted
compared their combat record to White squadrons, alluded to lack of air discipline, and hinted at a lack of aggressiveness.  
they had to do it better than anybody else,  anything else would have given ammunition for those that were against the formation of their group.  There were people just looking for them to screw it up.

I surmize they never received any better training than white pilots.   It wasnt until they were assigned to the 79th FG they got the training they needed to be sucessful

In October 1943, the 99th was assigned to Colonel Earl Bates’ 79th Fighter Group that was supporting the invasion of Italy. Bates considered his new unit part of his team, a fact supported by an observer from the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), who reported "total obliteration of consciousness of differences of skin color among both white and Negro fliers of the 79th Group." Squadrons were mixed for combat and training missions. The 99th gained experience and confidence. And on January 27, 1944, the unit had its second kill in support of the Army’s amphibious landings at Anzio, the first landing in Italy. It boasted eight kills that day and soon the victories began to mount.

I think a part of their sucess was their leadership
It established a reputation for protecting its bombers. The pilots always followed Col. Davis’ orders: "Your job is to protect the bombers and not chase enemy aircraft for personal glory." The Germans called the 332nd Schwartze Vogrl Menshen (black birdmen) and began to fear seeing a plane with its distinctive red tail—the mark of the Airmen.

[uberhun]

Actually, I think what would make a great movie, is a luftwaffe based story, done ala Das Boot style. now that would kick butt. How the Germans over came all the internal and external challenges and crushed the western theater for so many years.

[Red Tail 444]

Lt. Col Charles McGee told me about the Fw180 he shot down, rolling and weaving in a valley somewhere, fired a lead shot to the left of the Fw, who rolled into the bullet stream. He guessed he hit the pilot or a control feeature becasue the plane immediately rolled into the hills. Over our 3+ hours together he shared a lot of his story with me, and not once did he mention the ****storm he went through to get to Europe.

He flew 407 total missions  through the Vietnam War.

That's probably 407 more than anyone on these boards has flown, BTW

[-tronski-]

FW180?
 
Typo for 190?

 Tronsky

[lazs2]

Ok.. so they woulda had an ace but the man kept em down.

I have read the stories of dozens of aces and most did not get a kill or two they thought they deserved.  it happened.

I am  not saying that they were not good pilots but it was the end of the war and they were flying about the best plane available with good numbers against a rapidly declining level of compentency in the LW.

I have never read much about the red tails because frankly...

the racial stuff that most authors put into it bores and angers me... I am not interested in that stuff.

I believe that all that stuff diminishes the accomplishments of those brave pilots.   I am glad to hear that in person they don't play the boring race card.  I have allways enjoyed talking to real WWII fighter pilots but never talked to a red tail.

lazs

[Sweet2th]

the racial stuff that most authors put into it bores and angers me... I am not interested in that stuff.

Most people these days do not want to hear the truth, but that is really how they were treated.


Can you even fathom what it's like to be treated like that just because of your color? the answer is no you can't even imagine it.

At that time period most black men in the military were kept in less active rolls like cook or secratary, so for these pilots to achieve what they did is one of the greatest feats any of us will over know.I have met some of those pilots who flew the red tailed Mustang and they are some of the finest men i will have met.


I was watching Legends of Airpower the other night and till then i had not known a lot about a group of Women pilots called the WASPS or what they had done.They were women pilots who flew the planes the men fought in from the factory to the embark point.38 of those women died in transit and they were not even given military burials.Thier family's were not allowed to hang a GOLD STAR in the window.They had to pay thier own way for everything, but yet they risked everything to get the job done working 7 days a week.It wasn't until 1977 after many years of lobbying that they were given what was due to them.


So think about what some americans had to overcome and how far we have come as a society and how we treat others because honestly all of us should feel damn lucky those types of people were on are side.

The Biggest of SALUTES to the MEN & WOMEN who helped keep the blanket of FREEDOM right where it belongs.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by lazs2
so how many aces did the red tails have?

lazs

Not sure what you are asking this for Lazs?  350th FG flying 39s, then Jugs with the 12th AF in Italy had no Aces, but they had the only MTO Medal of Honer winner in a fighter.  They got replacement 'hand me down' P39s from the 332nd.  They'd also been over there since 42.

Aces were more determined by the role the Group was playing then anything else I think.  That and time in combat.  359th FG with the 8th flew Jugs and 51s.  Their CO was much like Ben Davis of the 332nd.  Stay with the bombers, don't go chasing LW fighters at the expense of this.  He had less aces as well but they did their job.

I'm seeing folks suggest that the caliber of pilot they faced was less.  Well that applies to any USAAF pilots flying in 44 on I'd think.  So does that diminish the Aces the 8th AF turned out or the 9th?  The 15th AF sure had their share too.

Does that mean I want Lucas to do another Red Tail movie?  I guess I'm neither here nor there about it.

I'd rather see something like "Serenade to the big bird" get done since that book by B17 Co-pilot Bert Stiles is such a classic and written at the time so it has the feel of the time in it so well.

But I have little faith in Hollywood to do such a book accurately.  Look how they butchered Memphis Belle, and that was done by Wyler's kid.

[Airscrew]

Originally posted by lazs2
Ok.. so they woulda had an ace but the man kept em down.
If thats how you want to read it, Ok.  But 1940's thats probably right.

I have read the stories of dozens of aces and most did not get a kill or two they thought they deserved.  it happened.
thats true, all sides

I am  not saying that they were not good pilots but it was the end of the war and they were flying about the best plane available with good numbers against a rapidly declining level of compentency in the LW.
I wouldnt say Oct 1943 was the end of the war.  and for at least the first 6-8 months of the squadrons assignment in North Africa and Italy they flew P-40s, not excatly the best plane available.  I cant comment specificly on LW's compentency from Oct 1943 till the end of the war but I recall reading something not to long ago that they started have issues with pilot training after spring or summer of 44.