Author Topic: P-63 D model When built?  (Read 1522 times)

Offline J_A_B

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2005, 12:36:24 PM »
If any version of P-63 were to be added to AH, I'd hope for the P-63A as it was the model built in the largest quantity and was the only model delivered to the USSR in decent numbers before the end of 1944.  The P-63D was a one-off freak.

It's somewhat unclear as to how much use the P-63's actually had in Soviet service.  This is likely why the plane hasn't yet been added to AH.


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Offline Grits

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2005, 01:17:10 PM »
Along with the B-25, the P-39/400 and the P-63 are the only US planes I would like to see added. I'd even be OK without the P-63, since the P-39 played such an important part is some areas in the early part of the war.

Offline Karnak

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2005, 02:20:07 PM »
Grits,

Add the TBD Devastator to your list.  We need some early war, sucky US stuff.  A Finnish and US/RAF/Dutch version of the Brewster wouldn't be bad either.
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Offline zorstorer

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2005, 03:23:25 PM »
Just a side thought Tony, but why was the 37mm cannon popular vs another large caliber round?  Did it have the best performance vs round/gun size or weight?

Sorry about the hijack :)

Offline Grits

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2005, 04:56:16 PM »
I wouldnt be against the TBD but we dont really need it, afterall it only served in two battles. Sure they were both monumental battles, Coral Sea and Midway, but we can do without the TBD.


Same with the Brewster, I am not against it, I'd like to see it actually, but we dont really have to have it.

Offline agent 009

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2005, 07:27:04 PM »
Um, there is rumor & some eyewitness accounts of P-63's fighting over Berlin. Even a book written by a Russian pilot in 60's mentioning this.

Not numerous like other fighters, but interesting sidebar.

Offline Tony Williams

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2005, 07:56:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by zorstorer
Just a side thought Tony, but why was the 37mm cannon popular vs another large caliber round?  Did it have the best performance vs round/gun size or weight?

The reason for the popularity of the 37mm calibre goes back to the 19th century. An international agreement - the St Petersburg Declaration - banned the use of explosive shells which weighed less than 400g. At that time, the best calibre for that weight of shell was 37mm, so that was adopted by Hotchkiss and subsequently Maxim (for the Pom-pom); their guns were sold in large numbers.

The agreement fell apart in WW1 and was almost entirely ignored thereafter (the last remnant apparently being the USN's 1.1 inch AA gun of the 1930s - its curious calibre had a shell weighing 416g). But with lots of production lines set up to make 37mm barrels and ammunition, if you wanted a gun of around that size it was easier to stick to that calibre. Vickers and Bofors with their 2 pdr / 40mm guns were the main ones to break away.

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Offline zorstorer

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2005, 10:16:38 PM »
Thanks Tony, I was thinking it had to have something more to do with something like that rather than a random number they picked out of the air :)

Were explosive shells that weighed less than 400 grams bad juju? Or did they not want explosive rifle rounds?

Offline Rasker

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2005, 04:53:46 PM »
explosive rifle rounds or anything similar were it exactly!  I recall banning small explosive rounds came as part of the same drive to ban fragmenting (or 'Dum Dum") bullets and to mandate full metal jackets as part of various Geneva and Hague conventions.  This was to minimize wounds that inflicted damage above and beyond merely incapaciting the victim.

In that sense, 'Dum Dum' was indeed bad 'ju ju'

Offline Guppy35

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2005, 05:08:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by agent 009
Um, there is rumor & some eyewitness accounts of P-63's fighting over Berlin. Even a book written by a Russian pilot in 60's mentioning this.

Not numerous like other fighters, but interesting sidebar.


Seems like we discussed this before.  Widewing had some info on the possible use on the Eastern front.

Otherwise they only saw the briefest of action, if any at the end against Japan.

Good book to track down is "Cobras over the Tundra" by Everett Long, covering the deliveries of 39s and 63s to Russia.  Lots of good images.

The other good book is "Cobra!"  by Birch Matthews.  Everything you'd want to know about 39 and 63 development and use.

Go with the C.  The Russians had a thing for the added strake under the tail that aided stability.

Russians recieved 4,924 P39s and 2,421 P63s.

I grew up near Crystal Airport in Minnesota, where Jack Sandberg had Tipsy Miss, his racing P63.  Got to see and hear that bird going over the house often, so I have a bit of a soft spot for the old KingCobra

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Offline Squire

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2005, 08:51:48 PM »
I did some digging before on this, only combat I think the P-63s did was against Japan. I have a book on P-39 Aces and Soviet Aces, and could find no confirmation of P-63s "in combat" on the East Front before the war ended, only some sorties against the Japanese in August of 1945.

The P-39Qs were used prolifically on the East Front, and im sure any seen over Berlin were likely those.

I have seen nothing definitive yet on ETO combat for it, so far its rumours and anecdotal eye witness stuff, without confirmation of sources. The P-63 and P-39 look so similar, I really have my doubts about enemy combatants saying for sure they saw them, since flak gunners and pilots on both sides routinely misidentified fighters that had national insignia painted on them.  

Colonel Pokryshkin was flying a P-39N in May 1945 "white 100", he was a 3 time winner of the Hero of the Soviet Union, the second highest Russian ace of the war, and had 59 kills, yet he isnt equipped with a P-63? This is a high scoring Guards fighter unit. They got the best personnel, booze, accolades and lots of press, yet the new P-63 is kept from them? I dunno.

In fact, I can find no evidence any of the top VVS P-39 aces or Guards Fighter Rgts like 16 GIAP and 100 GIAP were flying P-63s at wars end, which is kinda odd. Surely if it was available they would have been equipped with it?

Its no accident that Colonel Kozedub was flying an LA-7 at wars end. He didnt need to ask special to get them for his unit.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2005, 09:25:53 PM by Squire »
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Offline Debonair

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2005, 11:19:49 PM »
I remember reading somewhere that the commies looked down no small amount on VVS pilots going on about all the great planes they got from capiitalist running dogs & that is why we dont know too much about the P-63 is VVS service

Offline PropNut

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2005, 11:47:43 PM »
Ahhhh the P63  thats one i would love to see in AH .  
 I had the good fortune to be able to play with this one for about a week  (I installed an autopilot in it)   This one was originally a Russian bird  and was raced at the Reno Air Races under "Tipsy Miss" for many years then had its wings clipped and was painted orange and raced under the new name of "What Price Speed" It was then restored and painted in its Russian paint scheme.   Unfortunately it was lost in a crash in France in 1990.   Watching this thing make a full power low level high speed pass right over our hanger still gives me goose bumps.:D Although they look a little awkward on the ground  they are quite beautiful in the air. .... Check the link beside the photo to see it in its Russian paint....

 





 Some History On this One

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p39-p63registry/p63-444393.html

Offline Squire

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2005, 09:11:14 AM »
Well, they had no probs celebrating P-39 aces from 42-45, so I don't think that had much to do with it. I have never seen any evidence they tried to hide the fact they flew lots of western planes. Certainly lots of wartime photos taken, officially sanctioned im sure.
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Offline AutoPilot

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P-63 D model When built?
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2005, 10:04:11 AM »
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/an22.htm

This is a link to where i volunteer twice a month,has some good info.


More info:http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p63.htm
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 10:06:36 AM by AutoPilot »