Author Topic: An end to Dive Bombing Buffs? G-Load limts for buff wings  (Read 1633 times)

Offline Simaril

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An end to Dive Bombing Buffs? G-Load limts for buff wings
« on: November 20, 2005, 08:05:52 AM »
Level bombers didnt dive bomb for a simple reason: they couldnt.

Not just because the pilots wanted to get home, but because the planes couldnt stand the forces inherent in the bomb run. I dont have access to pilot manuals, design data, and engineering tests for the buffs (I'm not even an engineer), but I understand at least one thing clearly about aircraft design: every decision is a trade off.

If you clip the wings to help roll rate, you cut into sustained turn. If you decrease wing loading to help turning, you cut into max speed. If you add fuel capacity to help range, you reduce maneuverability and climb. If you try to add every feature and capacity, you end up with a plane that does nothing well. So when you design an aircraft, you design it FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE.

Level bombers were designed for long range bombing from altitude . (Yes, I know they were used at low alt, but that wasnt the design specification.) Because of the goal, decisions made pointed to maximizing the features that helped the aircraft succeed at the task. And, for the purposes of this discussion, consider just the effect of increasing wing G-tolerance on the mission.

Wings on heavy bombers needed to be strong enough to carry the load of the aircraft, its fuel, and its ORDNANCE (thanks, Leviathan). They had to be designed with a safety margin that allowed for stresses expected in performing the design mission, which would include altitude changes and banking (60 degree bank doubles the force on wing spars, even without applying G). Diving stresses those structures even more. With increased air speed the airframe gets increased friction forces, vibration (and the risk of resonance induced force multiplication) --- and INERTIA.

Any effort to change direction while at speeds above design parameters requires applying further stress to the airframe and control surfaces, almost certainly causing structural failure. While extra margin was built in, it wasnt allowed to unnecessaily compromise the primary mission. Building spars strong enough to dive costs WEIGHT. Allowing a B-24 enough strength to withstand, much less pull out of, a 310mph dive would have REQUIRED a reduction in bombload or range. Any designer who seriously wanted to make that compromise wouldnt be smart enough to hold a job.



I have tried to research for design documents on the net, and have come up short of the definitive data I want. I have found original pilot documentation that, for example, instructed them to keep airspeed below 275mph when descending. I've also dicumented that speeds above 305 would set up catastrophic vibrations in the de-icer boots along the leading edge, causing structual wing failure. Application of control forces can also cause catastrophic failure:
Quote
In the higher speed range, the elevators become "heavy". This is desirable inasmuch as it helps to prevent sudden extreme application of the elevators, which might prove damaging to the structure. When maneuvering the airplane, as in a dive, always keep the airplane trimmed by use of the trim tabs. If the pilot attempts to hold the full stick load, his sudden relaxing can apply a destructive force to the airplane

b-24 pilots notes, 1942 http://www.gaspartorriero.it/HTML/B24%20Pilot%20Notes.htm. All emphasis mine.

Note that even RELAXING controls at speed, much less yanking on them, could cause structural failure.

From the same site, speed limits are clearly outlined for various loads:
Quote
DIVE - The limiting diving speeds for various gross weights are:

 
_____________________MPH         KmPH          Knots
 
41,000 lbs (18,144 Kg)     355           570            300
 
47,174 lbs (21,398 Kg)     325           520            280
 
56,000 lbs (25,401 Kg)      275          440             240
 

Air loads build up rapidly on any large airplane in a dive, therefore, avoid abrupt movements of the controls.

Control trim should be maintained with the idea of keeping tail surface forces to a minimum. It is better to trim the airplane to slightly nose heavy rather than tail heavy. If it were trimmed tail heavy, in a dive the inherent tendency to pull up would make the application of up-elevator easier and more abrupt, creating higher load factors of "g's".


It is my impression (and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, HT) that these structural limits are not well modelled in AH2. I'm fairly sure I've taken full ordnance loads faster than that, though full fuel loads arent needed in the game.


I'm also suspicious that the very "heavy" controls described at speed arent well modelled. The manual notes that EVEN AT LANDING SPEED OF ABOUT 100mph
Quote
When flying a heavy airplane remember that a heavy body in motion resists effort to change the motion. Therefore, if a steep glide is being made with accompanying high rate of descent, it takes some time and a considerable force to flare out this rate of descent and change the direction to one parallel to the ground. It cannot reasonably be expected with a rate of descent of over 500 ft./min. (152 meters/min.) to start to level off 5 to 10 feet (1.5 to 3 meters) above the ground and succeed in doing anything but "flying in".



_____________________________ ___



The current use of heavy bombers in the MA has significant game impact. Discussion of "whats good for the game" has been inconclusive; however, correct flight models are a priority at HTC. I beleive that the above information would both result in more accurate modelling and improved game play.

For those with better research skills (or access) than mine, there are several avenues that may produce even more useful results.

1. Bomb dropping restrictions. There is a tantalizing comment in the pilots notes:
Quote
Bomb Clearance Instructions

When releasing bombs in a glide or climb, observe the restrictions shown in "Armament Manual".

If anybody can track down a copy of this document, it would likely describe the design limitations for non- horizontal bombing -- and thus resolve another discussion with fact rather than opinion.

2. During engineering tests, it was contemporary practice to test the functional (as opposed to design) strength of aircraft by simply loading weights on the wing until the thing failed. Delving into archival records of Consolidated or Boeing through successor corporations or historical archives might yeild us hard numbers that would tell how much "cushion" was included in the above speed and load restrictions.


With Regards,


Simaril
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 09:26:46 AM by Simaril »
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Offline Grits

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2005, 11:07:13 AM »
Just restrict them to dropping bombs from the F6 view and everything is solved.

Offline Simaril

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2005, 01:30:55 PM »
Not really, grits. As others have said, all a lancstuka would need to do is to nose down, establish dive, hit F6, drop ord, back to 1 position.

The F6 rule isnt optimal for two reasons: it wouldnt work to change dive bombing; and it is a "game" solution to what is essentially a simulation modelling problem.


EDIT: Also, realize that in essence HTC has spoken on the F6 issue. The idea has been around the block more than once, and HTC has neither commented nor shown any sign of adopting it. By inference, the F6 solution isnt popular in the corporate office....so dont hold your breath. I suspect that if this issue is addressed, it will be addressed for different reasons and in different ways.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 01:52:40 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Oleg

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2005, 01:38:43 PM »
When you switch to F6 view autotrim on level turn on automatically. But i agree "F6 restrict" will not completely solve problem. As well as "G-load limits".
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Offline Debonair

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2005, 07:27:45 PM »
I think banking 60 degrees would increase the load factor, the amount of lift the wings have to produce to prevent stalling, not the Gs on the wing (unless it starts trying a coordinated turn at that bank).  If high angles of bank created Gs, woluldn't all planes have their wings come off at the 90 degree point?

Offline JAWS2003

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2005, 10:06:03 PM »
Not all bombers are B24. Ju-88 could do 800 km/h in dive and was used in dive bombing missions. It even had dive brake and automatic dive recovery.

Offline SuperDud

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2005, 10:18:18 PM »
Read simarils 1st sentence in his 1st post JAWS. Ju88's are fine and can dive bomb, no ones debating that.
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Offline Charge

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2005, 08:21:53 AM »
"41,000 lbs (18,144 Kg) 355 570 300

47,174 lbs (21,398 Kg) 325 520 280

56,000 lbs (25,401 Kg) 275 440 240"


Imagine the weight the wings have to endure in a 2G pull-out...

The problem is not the forward speed as the wing is very large in that plane but very thin in that other plane and G's do build up rapidly in a  pull-out...

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Offline Simaril

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2005, 02:48:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Debonair
I think banking 60 degrees would increase the load factor, the amount of lift the wings have to produce to prevent stalling, not the Gs on the wing (unless it starts trying a coordinated turn at that bank).  If high angles of bank created Gs, woluldn't all planes have their wings come off at the 90 degree point?



Thanks for the clarification. Like I said, I'm not an aeronautical engineer by any stretch. I found a document showing "load factors" at various degrees of bank, and made a mistaken assumption about the definition.



Oleg,
While autotrim does turn on in the f6 view, I doubt it would have any effect on the targeting ability of dive bombing B24s in the game. Set salvo to 12, and I bet you could hit the 2 necessary keys in under a half second (F6, fire) with minimal flight path disruption.



And to all,
The bomber stress tolerance modelling issue has been in the back of my mind for a long while. I'd hoped that someone in the community had access to documents that would be definitive, but no ones stepped forward with them so far.

So, even though I'm a novice at this stuff, I'm starting down the archival research path through the National Archives, NASM, and Library of Congress. Wish me luck, adn I'll keep you posted.

Regards,

Simaril
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 03:42:18 PM by Simaril »
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Offline mussie

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2005, 09:45:05 PM »
I dont dive bomb but I have done an immelman in an empty B17 and thought that it was a bit much to have been able to pull it off


Why did I pull an immelman in a b17, I was trying to escape a fighter, yep I know it was impossable but... GO DOWN FIGHTING I SAY

Offline DWaves

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2005, 10:05:10 PM »
In real life, a bomber pilot would not risk their life or the crews life by diving on a target.  However the pilot could dive on a target and tell the bombardier when to release if this was a last act of defiance, if ya gonna die go out in a blaze of glory!

The real glitch here is even if you can't pull out of the dive or your plane's wings get torn off and you get killed your back in the air in less than a minute.  In real life your really dead!

So I guess this is the part where we say "Don't try this at home in a real bomber even if you have adult supervision."

Thanks for the tip, maybe I'll try dive bombing next time I'm flying the friendly skies in my Boeing

DWaves

Offline OOZ662

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2005, 05:24:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Also, realize that in essence HTC has spoken on the F6 issue. The idea has been around the block more than once, and HTC has neither commented nor shown any sign of adopting it. By inference, the F6 solution isnt popular in the corporate office....so dont hold your breath. I suspect that if this issue is addressed, it will be addressed for different reasons and in different ways.


I agree with you completely on this whole thing, don't get me wrong, but you just mooted yourself; have you ever seen them reply to this topic, much less any OTHER change to an existing model (other than a graphical error or engine setting type of thing) or any real change in the first place?

HTC doesn't reply(unless you're completely wrong and HT needs his monthly pwn :D), but they do read. Seen a couple posts that were new problems or ideas that weren't that big with no replies at all and in the next update list, there it was.

Yeah, that second "paragraph" got choppy. I'm going to bed now, seeing as it's three-freakin-thirty. *thump*
A Rook who first flew 09/26/03 at the age of 13, has been a GL in 10+ Scenarios, and was two-time Points and First Annual 68KO Cup winner of the AH Extreme Air Racing League.

Offline humble

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2005, 08:52:29 AM »
In "Wings of Morning" the auther spends a fair amount of time covering the training of the Black Cat"'s crew. From what I read there the B24 was very very rugged overall but the design of the wing made it very suscepible to any type of torque or excessive G's. It was actually a difficult plane just to fly when "heavy" and alot of them were lost in training missions simply because pilots let the bird get away from them (often alone and in daylight)...

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Offline hitech

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2005, 11:44:45 AM »
If you can find some detail data on max forces on any buffs we would be glad to take a look at them. But you might be suprised how low the g limits already are.

HiTech

Offline OOZ662

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G-Load limts for buff wings
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2005, 12:13:59 PM »
Pff, just moot me too HT. :D
A Rook who first flew 09/26/03 at the age of 13, has been a GL in 10+ Scenarios, and was two-time Points and First Annual 68KO Cup winner of the AH Extreme Air Racing League.