Author Topic: What happened to LW? (Read 21587 times)

gatt · « **Reply #15 on:** November 22, 2005, 09:15:24 AM »

Luft-RA-whiners ..., you even got a G-14 thats twice as good the G-6 if math is not an opinion, uhm, ehr

Stop whining, you got the K-4 as well. Practice with basketball! One 30mm drop into the enemy cockpit and voilà!

Crumpp · « **Reply #16 on:** November 22, 2005, 09:34:19 AM »

Quote

The P51 has always been able to outturn the G10/K4 in AH when flown the right way thanks to combat flaps.

The P51 had plain flaps the same as the Bf-109. There is no difference nor anything special about the Mustangs flaps system as far as I can tell.

I am confused as too why it is treated as such??

Can anyone explain it?

All the best,

Crumpp

Wilbus · « **Reply #17 on:** November 22, 2005, 09:36:54 AM »

Different or not it usre as hell is different in AH.

The speed is one thing, I have no Data suporting higher flap speeds in the 109 but even when they are dropped they make little difference.

Shane · « **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2005, 10:28:21 AM »

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Originally posted by Wilbus
I too will keep flying axis planes, 190's and 109's mostly and everything that comes with them.

hah! so you're gonna hangar that niki, huh?!?

Angus · « **Reply #19 on:** November 22, 2005, 10:48:22 AM »

From Crumpp:
"The P51 had plain flaps the same as the Bf-109. There is no difference nor anything special about the Mustangs flaps system as far as I can tell.

I am confused as too why it is treated as such??

Can anyone explain it?"

The 109 had physically deployed flaps (30 secs of left hand action to full?) while the P51 had this little lever to lower. Makes a hell of a difference in combat!

Crumpp · « **Reply #20 on:** November 22, 2005, 11:05:54 AM »

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The 109 had physically deployed flaps (30 secs of left hand action to full?) while the P51 had this little lever to lower. Makes a hell of a difference in combat!

LOL,

The Bf-109 did not have pilot physically lowered flaps anymore than the P51 had pilot physically lowered flaps!

Both systems took about the same amount of time to deploy. Only difference is the Bf-109 pilot seems to have more control over exactly how much flap he wants to lower.

Start lowering anymore than about 10 degrees of flaps and drag begins to result in diminishing returns for combat usefulness.

All the best,

Crumpp

Waffle · « **Reply #21 on:** November 22, 2005, 11:09:25 AM »

pretty sure the 109 flaps were on a hand cranked wheel, with the second wheel being elevator trim.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #22 on:** November 22, 2005, 11:21:19 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Crumpp
LOL,

The Bf-109 did not have pilot physically lowered flaps anymore than the P51 had pilot physically lowered flaps!

Both systems took about the same amount of time to deploy. Only difference is the Bf-109 pilot seems to have more control over exactly how much flap he wants to lower.

Start lowering anymore than about 10 degrees of flaps and drag begins to result in diminishing returns for combat usefulness.

Agh? The P-51 pilot moves a lever while the 109 pilot had to spin a wheel on the left side of the seat. Read what Waffle has to say real carefully Crumpp. From full up to full down the P-51 took half the time to what the 109 took.

Take a look at this link to help you get it correct, http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/php-bf109d/cockpit/cockpit-bf109d.php

The 2 wheels are #16 and #17.

Creton · « **Reply #23 on:** November 22, 2005, 11:24:17 AM »

I am by no means accomplished in the 109/190 planes but i do fly the g10 exclusively and have discovered that it most likely will perform better in the verticle than a pony.I feel that the k4 has a very stiff feel to it while the g14 seems to be better suited to my flying style.Slow speed handling in the g14 is eccelent if flaps are used but the k4 seems to wallow a lot when enetering into a slower turn fight,as with all the 109's the slats have always caused some wallowing issues although they were used to prevent stall.I have some data that shows that 109's could deploy flaps at a faster speed than we are able to in game.Howbeit with that said I still prefer to fight in the g14 or k4,even if they are porked to some degree and enjoying watching ponys and most any other a/c fall to the ground from a plane that is porked and flown by an inferior pileit.The 109 thta really got the short end of the stick was the 109f4,it used to be great for base defense but basically sucs now,but hey the cockpits look good.Al I can really say is atleast they fixed the superuberflappenverticalrocke tofazeroturnradiusturnfighter ,the spitv hell that flew flew like an tie fighter from starwars.

~~VIC~~

Wilbus · « **Reply #24 on:** November 22, 2005, 11:36:59 AM »

It looks to me like you guys are talking about the same thing but either missunderstand eachother or don't listen at all.

Question from me: How long did it take for the pony to deply its flaps from fully up to fully down? Show link/data please, not just some text saying "I once read somewhere that it took this and that long".

You're all talking about a wheel instead of a lever which seems to be true from all the above links. Crump's and Milo's links both tell about trim wheels.

However, the 109 did not have physicly lowered flaps (if by "physicly" means that you had to lower them by use of personal "force"). They were hydraulicly lowered BUT with the use of a wheel instead of a lever.

Acording to Crump's links, 4 turns on the wheel was equal to 20 degrees flaps. It took 11-15 seconds for the flaps to go from fully up to fully down (50 degrees).

But what I find very interesting is the 109 flap speed chart Crump posted above. If I understand it correct, then 10 degree of flaps should be possible at 750 Km/h?

14 degrees at about 600 km/h and 20 degrees at about 480 km/h.

That is one hell of a difference to what we have.

Crumpp · « **Reply #25 on:** November 22, 2005, 11:37:03 AM »

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Agh? The P-51 pilot moves a lever while the 109 pilot had to spin a wheel on the left side of the seat. Read what Waffle has to say real carefully Crumpp. From full up to full down the P-51 took half the time to what the 109 took.

Where do you see that?

Prove it took longer than 11-15 seconds to turn the wheel 8 times?

BS statement not backed up by facts only an assumption based off what? Your experience at the controls of a P51 or 109? Certainly has no basis in fact.

Do you and Waffle really think I don't know the 109's flaps are operated by a wheel??

I posted the Flugzeug-Handbuch exerpt! Read my post before you make a silly assumption and a ridiculus reply.

Could the P51 deploy 10 degrees of flap at 750kph??

NO....Not according to the POH.

All the best,

Crumpp

Crumpp · « **Reply #26 on:** November 22, 2005, 11:47:45 AM »

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It took 11-15 seconds for the flaps to go from fully up to fully down (50 degrees).

That is an exerpt from the P51D POH. The Bf-109's flaps went down as fast as the pilot turned the wheel.

Both systems have advantages. In the P51 the pilot is just selecting a preset position on a lever. However he does not have as much control nor does he have the ability to drop flaps at the high speeds the 109 pilot can.

The 109 pilot has much more precise control over the amount of flap he chooses to use. He can dial in or out the precise amount needed in the fight quickly and use flaps almost throughout the aircrafts envelope if he chooses.

All the best,

Crumpp

Guppy35 · « **Reply #27 on:** November 22, 2005, 11:48:50 AM »

The problem with these threads, regardless of which plane you like, is that it always comes down to "those guys planes fly better then the plane I like. Why was mine porked and why is theirs uber?"

That doesn't apply to everyone who contributes, but there are enough folks who beat the subject into the ground that it loses focus.

Nath certainly has the skills in the arena to talk about the planes, but even he throws in-

"In the past 2 years or so it seems like all the allied planes have been increasingly made easier to fly (incredible almost anti gravity, turn radius increasing, little drag flaps and cockpits with very little obstructions) while axis planes (specifically the LW fleet) have only become worse."

It's the old implied Allied conspiracy at work.

Is it possible that HTC have refined the models towards a better representative version of the particular bird?

Think about the Spit whines about the new Vb vs the old Vc. Seems like the 'Luftwhiners" got their way on that one, if you want to believe in conspiracies. I don't buy into that. To me, and I'm a Spit history fan, HTC did the right thing making the one Spit V variant we have a more representative version from 41 instead of a later LF Vc. Just doing a quick count, I could argue forever on the Spit V as there were at least 39 different wing, engine etc combinations that fell under the label Spitfire V.

Probably not realistic to expect HTC to produce all 39 versions though, even thouugh a late 43 clipped LFVc would mop up in the low alt world of AH. And of course they could carry 4 cannon! I love that one. I've yet to find anywhere where a Spit V pilot would have wanted to go into air combat with that much of a weight & performance penalty. The only use was in ground attack in Italy where there was no real threat of air to air. All I see when I see the request for 4 cannon is that guys want the hitting power for easier kills, and aren't thinking at all about the reality of it.

Ultimately it comes down to the game having the best representative version with realistic options. As for performance, I have to believe that Pyro and the guys are using the best info they can get to make it as accurate as possible. It's not like they don't have lots of help whether they want it or not

I don't believe they are slanting the game towards the Allies.

It might also come down to adjusting to the FM and getting the best out of the bird you like to fly.

JAWS2003 · « **Reply #28 on:** November 22, 2005, 12:15:46 PM »

I have one question here a bit off topic. Why did they modeled the P-51B with Malcolm Hood?
does anyone know how many P51 B's had this canopy from the total number?

Glasses · « **Reply #29 on:** November 22, 2005, 12:28:44 PM »

Well I look it at this way. The lesser planes that are flown in AH from the LW side when I get to make a kill and gloat to some Star Spangled dweeb uber rider it is so much sweeter, that my skill not the plane made the victory. If I lose then no matter I know I fought well and to the best of my abilities to what the AH FM allows the underperforming aircraft to do. So I do not get sentimental about it anymore.

I have noticed that with the limits the FM has to some aircraft, not in accordance to its real life counterpart. If the plane mentioned had the ability to do certain thing like the real plane could , those fights would play much differently, but they don't. I think mainly due to remaining with the status quo of financial sucess, I don't blame them but t is as such.

The few instances,now that I'm flying on Bish's side I've seen a LW aircraft from the enemy has been mainly K-4s and G-14s. When they see me in a 190A8 I get bounced like flies on excrement. Most of the time I have gone out,some well not that much. Either way not much a 190A8-R8 like the one in AH can do at low altitude compared to its older counterpart the A-5.

Heck even the Dora,my lovely Dorita cannot catch a fleeing Pony OTD anymore and has trouble accelerating away from such deformed being as a F4U-1 Corsair D, for the love of Kurt Tank come on!