109 Cockpit Thread

[Mime]

Hello

I have always really liked the 109G10 (now K4) one of my favorite planes in AH.  With the new version though I think the two vertical cockpit bars next to the gunsight are a bit too wide.  Here is a pic for example of 109K4 in AH and a drawing of a K4 cockpit.  The drawing should depict what the cockpit would like in reallity without any perspective distortions as what happens with fixed plane cameras.  

I will try to post some more pictures when I can.  I know many others have some too...



compare to new 109F4 cockpit which looks more like what it should be for late models G6 G14 and K4.  In reality the frontal bars on 109 cockpit became longer (front to back) with the application of more armored glass and renforcement, however, these additions did NOT (from my research) significantly increase the level of obstruction seen from inside the cockpit on the later models.

109F4 cockpit


Nath

[Angus]

This would be a good thread of 109 cockpit photos as well.
I don't have a host but could probably dig up some and mail.
Well anyone?

[Treize69]

Sorry, plenty of P-38 cokpit pics, no 109 pics.

[Mime]

Originally posted by Angus
This would be a good thread of 109 cockpit photos as well.
I don't have a host but could probably dig up some and mail.
Well anyone?

hello angus. You can use Morpheus' upload site here: http://www.furballunderground.com/freehost/

[Angus]

Nice, thank you. Will have a look at it today.
I have some cockpit shots of the 109 some nice ones of the 190 and many other warbird photos. All for share!

[Furball]

google is your friend

http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=109+cockpit

[Jester]

Anyone else noticed that the "New and Improved" ME-109 cockpit is now almost impossible to see out of compaired to the old version no matter how you adjust it?  

I used to be able to see fine and flew the 109's for several years in several squads here in AH so I don't think it just something of an impression. Have a hell of a time keeping track of cons now where I never had the problem before.

Damn near bad as the C.202 & C.205 cockpits.  

[Mime]

Hello everyone.  I have done some comparison screenshots and am going to upload them to this thread.  Some things do not make sense to me.  First I am going to start with a comparison of drawings of the 109F cockpit and later the G (the K4 has the same basic cockpit as the G)

**PLEASE NOTE HERE MY EMPHASIS IS ON THE TWO VERTICAL BARS BESIDE THE GUNSIGHT, WHICH I THINK ARE MODELED MUCH TOO THICK, SEE PICTURES**


Below is a picture of a 109E cockpit followed by a drawing of a 109G/K cockpit





Now compare the vast difference in visibility between the early 109F4 and late G/K cockpit in AH.  **Note the 109E and F in AH share similar cockpits.  




I do not see such a vast difference in the real pictures, taken from similar angles, as I do between the two cockpits in Aces High.  What gives??

Further, I would assume that the decreased horizontal visibility would be due to the addition of extra armored glass to the front windscreen, which was added in the field to some 109Es and Fs, and added in production by default to the G and K series.  It doesn't make any sense to me that the 109F in aces high, which has the extra field mod armor added, does not suffer the same view restrictions as our late G and K, which have the default armor added to the windscreen.  Check out this picture:

Again the 109K on top and the F on bottom:



Again you can reference these pictures to the above comparison view of the armor's thickness from inside the cockpit.  Am I the only one that sees some inconsistency here??  Either the 109F4 cockpit bars should be wider, or the 109G and K thinner like the F4.  They have the same thickness in armor on the front.  I would argue that the photographic and historical drawings buttress the latter case, that the 109G and K vertical bars are much too wide and the obstruction assumed by the HTC as evident in the model was a bit over done.

As a pilot in the old G10 I can personally attest to the fact that the current cockpit has made aiming the 30mm more difficult, and some other pilots have also voiced concern for the unusually large obstruction from the vertical bars, which would seem like a step backward for the Luftwaffe -- why would they worsen views in a cockpit that already suffered from bad visibility?  They wouldn't do this -- improvements in cockpit visibility are seen in the development of the Erla-Haube canopy, which greatly increased rear visiblity from inside the 109G and K cockpit.

What is also not clear is that this is another case where the Axis have gotten worse cockpit views (except strangely for the F4 model) compared to real-life pictures and drawings, as compared to Allies which fit historical images more accurately.  

Further pictures of the 109G cockpit for discussions' sake.





Thanks
NathBDP

[Guppy35]

109F canopy bars were much closer to the 109E canopy.  G model and beyond was thicker as it incorperated the armored glass into the canopy not bolted on.  Kinda like the external armor glass on a early Spit vs the internal armor of the later Spits.

Image showing Mersailles 109F vs a later G.  Note the canopy differences.

[Krusty]

You really can't use this image:

http://beatdownposse.com/images/Aces_High/109Cockpit/109E.jpg

Because it's taken from outside the cockpit (above and behind). The line drawing is suspect because it is that, a drawing, and only meant to lay things out (not represent a perfect lens image).

[Mime]

Originally posted by Krusty
You really can't use this image:

http://beatdownposse.com/images/Aces_High/109Cockpit/109E.jpg

Because it's taken from outside the cockpit (above and behind). The line drawing is suspect because it is that, a drawing, and only meant to lay things out (not represent a perfect lens image).

The image is perfectly fine for comparisons, as you can see the width.  But if you insist...

Well gee here's a shot from the pilot's position --  big difference?  



I would say the line drawing is actually more of an objective source, as it does not introduce perspective variations as a wide-angle lens on a fixed plane camera does.  However, there are many photo sources for late 109G cockpit...

[Mime]

Originally posted by Guppy35
109F canopy bars were much closer to the 109E canopy.  G model and beyond was thicker as it incorperated the armored glass into the canopy not bolted on.  Kinda like the external armor glass on a early Spit vs the internal armor of the later Spits.

Image showing Mersailles 109F vs a later G.  Note the canopy differences.

Thanks for contributing the image.  Apparently the bars became wider from the front of the original 109F windscreen backwards, the armor was incorporated to the interior of the G and K, as opposed to being added to the exterior of the 109F cockpit as in field mods.  

But as seen in the pictures, the difference in visiblity between the early 109s and the late model is not as great as in AH.  

I will upload a cockpit picture of a 109G10 when I get my scanner working

[Mime]

109G10 cockpit.



Notice how the extra armor is barely noticeable, compared to the other versions?

Nath

[Mime]

Someone here claimed that a drawing based on real photos is not a good source for accurate reproduction.  Real G10 cockpit compared to drawing.  Apart from the differing perspective, they look pretty similar.

[parin]

I too have noticed it dificult in the new G and K model cockpits to track a target. The bars seem fairly large. Crossing shots are much more difficult due to the large bars. Head on the bars do not look so large. Looks like quite a bit of room between the pilot's head and the inner edge of the bars aswell.

also the AH pilots head looks really large.