Author Topic: Chases High  (Read 5401 times)

Offline Guppy35

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Chases High
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2005, 12:50:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
Even in the MA, flying to live is the only way to go for some of us. With this mindset, I get more excitement than I would if I didn't care about dying. Scenarios just heighten the excitement because no one is fighting simply for the sake of fighting. There's an objective and more than just notional penalties for failure.


Does that mean you engage only if the advantage is completely one sided in your favor?  Do you ever put yourself in a position where you are at the disadvantage?

Not asking that sarcastically, just wondering.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2005, 01:00:38 PM »
If I see a con that's 3k directly above me I will try to move out of the way and reengage on a slighly more balanced footing. If I see a con that's higher than me but far enough out (like 3k or so) then I'll make an attack and if that fails I can always lure them down onto my terms. Flying to live doesn't mean (for me) avoiding conflict. It just means I don't HAVE to dive into that ball of 12 red planes on the deck if I don't have any chance whatsoever of getting a shot off before being killed. On the other hand, when I see one lone green caught in that 12-red mass, I will go in even if it's just to distract the enemy to clear the friendly's six. Do I always? No. Do I often? Yes.

It's just a game. Making it back to field is the reward for me, but if I don't I can try again. And again. And again. Risks are part of the game, and I've had many a good fight with other players. Doesn't negate that I still enjoy the thrill of landing at the end of it.

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2005, 01:03:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Does that mean you engage only if the advantage is completely one sided in your favor?  Do you ever put yourself in a position where you are at the disadvantage?


Didn't you know, Dan?  Historically nobody ever, ever, ever flew at a disadvantage because that would get them killed.  That includes the people who had to fight all the people who flew with advantages.

Hm... wait... does not compute.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2005, 01:09:16 PM »
Well... I won't actively seek a disadvantage at the merge. I'd rather have an advantage, but I'll take neutral merge when I can get it.

Now, if you're talking strictly numbers, I won't wade in 1 versus 3 (or more) unless I have some good energy going in and an exit already planned. So, I may be at a disadvantage in numbers, but the energy can equalize somewhat.

On the other hand, going into a fight with a 3v1 advantage isn't all that challenging (or fun).
sand

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2005, 01:17:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
On the other hand, going into a fight with a 3v1 advantage isn't all that challenging (or fun).


Agreed. Often I'll just keep going when I see that. No fun to waste all that time and effort jockeying for a kill (even if you can get it) when clearly it's being dealt with already.

Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2005, 01:21:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Didn't you know, Dan?  Historically nobody ever, ever, ever flew at a disadvantage because that would get them killed.  That includes the people who had to fight all the people who flew with advantages.

Hm... wait... does not compute.

-- Todd/Leviathn


That's a distortion of the survivalist mentality. Everyone fights at a disadvantage alot, it's inevitable. In an arena with 400'ish people you are going to get caught with your pants down around your ankles plenty in situations beyond your control. The difference is a survivalist will not intentionally fight at a disadvantage in situations that are within his control.

Zazen
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Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2005, 01:24:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
The difference is a survivalist will not intentionally fight at a disadvantage in situations that are within his control.


Which basically goes to the heart of what I stated: it is not historically accurate.  It's a fine way to fly if you so desire, but that's about it.  Then again, you already knew that.  :)

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2005, 01:25:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
That's a distortion of the survivalist mentality. Everyone fights at a disadvantage alot, it's inevitable. In an arena with 400'ish people you are going to get caught with your pants down around your ankles plenty in situations beyond your control. The difference is a survivalist will not intentionally fight at a disadvantage in situations that are within his control.

Zazen


So if the dar bar is bigger for the bad guys in a sector you don't go up?
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2005, 01:27:25 PM »
maybe for zazen, but not for me lol

Offline Shane

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« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2005, 01:44:08 PM »
well sometimes i fly at a disadvantage because that's the only way to get a lot of players to engage in the first place.

plus i'm extremely confident even when fighting from a "disadvantage" no matter what plane i am in or up against.

alt, speed, #'s and planes are just tools that can be used for *or* against someone. unfortunately, there are also simply just a lot of "tools" in the skies.
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
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Offline Stang

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« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2005, 01:50:40 PM »
I have no problem with new guys flying timid since they really don't know what's going on.  However, the guys Furious is talking about are mostly not noobs.  These guys are the l337 scoring bnz types that know the game very well, that only engage when an enemy isn't looking or is engaged w/ multiple bandits, or just flat out only look to vulch.  Make no mistake, these guys are seasoned vets that do this.  And we all know who they are.

Offline Shane

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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2005, 01:52:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stang
Make no mistake, these guys are seasoned vets that do this.  And we all know who they are.


AHers or the Bengals?

:rofl
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2005, 02:05:06 PM »
I'm sure I've posted on this sort of topic a million times but I will do so again for the sake of this discussion. As most know I am a survivalist, let me define that for you. A survivalist is a person who seeks to sustain his life through adversity however possible. Allow me to illustrate how I think it, I abide by these laws everytime I take-off in a fighter it's kind of like the 3 laws of robotics:

1) Engage the enemy in an effort to preserve my life and the lives of my squad/teammates.

2) Destroy enemy aircraft as long as it does not conflict with the first law.

3)  Fascilitate the strategic objectives and goals of my Country/Squadron within the context of the area I am fighting so long as it does not conflict with the first two laws.

So, we can summarize my laws as Life, Death and Country/Squadron in that order. I have played with these three laws in different orders but none are as fun to me as 1) Life, 2) Death, 3) Country. The game takes on an added excitement factor when self-infused with a genuine fear of dying. Yes, I suppose this makes a person more timid, but prudently so, selectively timid is the same as selectively aggressive. Blindly aggressive is the same as reckless abandon, blindly timid is the same as cowardice. So there is a constant balance.

One thing I know about myself is I fight better when I care about dying. By that I mean, yes, I am more descriminating in my engagements but even when caught at a disadvatage I really, really want to live so fly like my pants are on fire. The old saying desperation is the mother of invention applies. When I am flying with no concern for my virtual demise I am not so inspired, I'll get lazy and do things that I would not normally do just because I am not thinking of the outcome. For example, I will latch onto someone's 6 who did something dweeby to me this hop or the last and make sure I kill him even if it means letting one of his buddies kill me. This I would not do if I was flying to survive. Flying with no concern for dying makes for very unrealistic fights. I'm doubting many pilots were willing to accept certain death just to knock another plane down if they had other alternatives.

Just because people are running don't assume they are cowards or even survivalists. People do run out of ammunition and gas, people do like to egress from a fight to regain some altitude before re-engaging, people do like to return to base after they get several kills, people do not like to blow the E required to reverse 180 degrees into an enemy who is conserving E some distance away on their 6 o' clock. These are all facts and reasons to leave a fight even if there are co-alt/co-E planes that wish to engage them.

Flying to survive does not mean you do not fight at a disadvantage. Flying to survive simply requires you not fight at a disadvantage if other options are available. I don't care how good you are in this game as a survivalist or not you are going to find yourself at a disdvantage ALOT. There is always a balance between getting kills and making yourself vulnerable to attack, everytime you engage you are making yourself vulnerable to attack in some way. Show me a survivalist who never fights at a disadvantage and I'll show you a career vulcher or a guy who gets very,very few kills few per unit time so is basically harmless anyways. We all fight at a disdvantage, the difference is a survivalist doesn't go out of his way to put himself in situations of disadvantage.


Zazen
« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 03:01:02 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2005, 02:08:07 PM »
I just like to kill stuff and see it blow up.  That's fun.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2005, 02:13:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stang
I have no problem with new guys flying timid since they really don't know what's going on.  However, the guys Furious is talking about are mostly not noobs.  These guys are the l337 scoring bnz types that know the game very well, that only engage when an enemy isn't looking or is engaged w/ multiple bandits, or just flat out only look to vulch.  Make no mistake, these guys are seasoned vets that do this.  And we all know who they are.


This is true and these are the guys that have gotten intoxicated by the 'attaboys' for landing 8-10 kills every run.  It's clearly not unique to AH, as score mongers exist in any game.  I'm sure the old AW types can immediately name the guys who did it back then.  Part of the problem is these guys help set the tone for anyone new coming in and the goal becomes getting that 'attaboy' for landing so many kills.

I had one of those guys get me twice yesterday when I was defending a base with a couple of good guys.  Multiple bad guys above us and the guy that got me would never engage unless I was busy with others.  Each time I was turning with 3 of his buds and he blazed through in his P47N from on high and got me.  He later landed 6 kills to a chorus of 'attaboys'.  At no point was he a part of the fight until I was low and slow with his buddies.

If that's how he wants to play it, so be it.  It's his dime.  But I do believe it's that emphasis on getting "wtg!" from landing many kills that sucks people in.

Funny how you don't see it for a couple of landed kills.  Chances are the guy actually earned those.  It's for the 8-12 vulches that the 'attaboys' rain down.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters