about Lancasters

[Replicant]

I've got a Lancaster pilot quoting that on occasion they'd fly Lancasters up to 27-28k during WW2.  However, they'd also do many missions around 15-16k... but then it would be at night!

[MiloMorai]

some trivia

During the filming of the Dam Busters the actors were told how to start up the engines of the Lanc and and start to taxi the plane. When they got a distance from the camera a real pilot would take over for the take off. On one occasion the folding seat that RAF pilot used collapsed during the take off and the actor had to get it off the ground and circle while the Pilot could get up and take over.

pulled off another board

[frank3]

Oh please, actors can hardly act, let alone take off with a Lancaster!

[Furball]

he cheated, he used auto take off

[frank3]

But did the real pilot really needed that much time to get up and take over?
I mean, between taxiing and take-off stands at least 5 minutes!

[Furball]

there is nowhere for him to really fall to either unless he fell down  the small passage into the nose section

[Angus]

Funny, just bought the Dambusters!

Have to have a lookie. Saw it when I was a kid and remember it as very good!

[Replicant]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
some trivia

During the filming of the Dam Busters the actors were told how to start up the engines of the Lanc and and start to taxi the plane. When they got a distance from the camera a real pilot would take over for the take off. On one occasion the folding seat that RAF pilot used collapsed during the take off and the actor had to get it off the ground and circle while the Pilot could get up and take over.

pulled off another board

Also during filming the real 60 feet altitude over the lakes didn't look low enough so they flew even lower!!  Can't remember how high exactly but I think it was 30-40ft!  I'll try and dig the magazine out with it in!

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Krusty
But P47N climbs like CRAP, and if the point is interception/chasing it'd be 15k by the time the 30k bomber was 2 sectors away.

I've tested the P-47N's time to climb, and it's far and away the fastest climber from 20k to 30k. Yeah, if you overload it with gas it doesn't climb very well from sea level. But, it was designed and engineered for high altitude performance. Within that context, it is simply awesome.

For example, let's compare the Bf 109K-4 to the P-47N. First, I will compare climb rates a various altitudes beginning at 20,000 feet. Just remember that the P-47N can fly as far on 50% fuel as the Bf 109K-4 can fly on 100%. Fuel burn 1.0

Bf 109K-4, take off with 100% fuel, climb in WEP.
20k: 3,200 fpm
24k: 2,950 fpm
27k: 2,400 fpm
30k: 1,850 fpm
33k: 1,400 fpm

P-47N, take off with 50% fuel, climb rate in WEP.
20k: 3,200 fpm
24k: 3,050 fpm
27k: 2,650 fpm
30k: 2,450 fpm
33k: 2,000 fpm

Let's look at performance at 33k, assuming we would be chasing bombers up there.

Max speed, in WEP at 33k.
Bf 109K-4: 422 mph
P-47N: 475 mph (444 mph in MIL power)

While the P-47N is much faster, that's only part of the story. Level at 33k, 300 mph TAS, apply power and monitor acceleration. The P-47N accelerates 2 times faster in MIL power than the 109K-4 does in WEP!!! Engage WEP in the P-47N and the Jug accelerates 3 times faster, getting from 300 to 400 mph in 1/3 of the time the 109K-4 requires.

So, my choice for bomber interception is the P-47N if I takeoff far enough ahead. I prefer to climb on the same heading as the bombers. Granted, the 109K-4 will get to 20k faster. However, if you need to chase down super-high bombers, the P-47N is the best. Especially when one considers that its about 190 mph faster than any bomber at 30k or higher.

My regards,

Widewing

[Krusty]

Have to point out something, however...

The P47 will only do those rates with WEP. WEP in a p47 lasts only a couple of minutes at best. Ki84 might have longer WEP than P47.

Also, while it is faster, even though it has 8 guns, they are all 50cal. Even 1 30mm with 65 rounds is better for bomber busting than 8 50cal with 3600 rounds.

And, while above 20k it does do rather well, it takes forever to get to 20k. I'm going to go offline right now and time it from SL to 30k 50% gas in p47N and 100% gas in 109k and use as much WEP as I can to figure it out real quick.

[Karnak]

P-47's WEP is 5 minutes, just like all WEP other than the Ki-84 and select German kites.  In any case, the P-47N vastly out performs the Bf109K-4 at those altitudes even when it is on MIL power and the K-4 is on WEP.

[Krusty]

indeed the P47N wep is 5 minutes exactly, found that out in my test. The 109K4 is 10 minutes.

Here is the setup: I used auto takeoff, and no throttle until the clock's second hand hit 12, then full throttle and wep, once gear was auto retracted I hit auto angle (because auto T/O stays at about 135) until best climbing speed reached, then autoclimb. Noted times exactly as needle passed the mark for the following alts. At 30k exactly leveled out timed it til 350TAS. Fuel burn is at 2.0

109K4: T/O 1:13pm
5k 1:14 30s pm
10k 1:15 39s pm
15k 1:16 52s pm
20k 1:18 13s pm
25k 1:19 50s pm
30k 1:21 59s pm
350TAS 1:22 56s pm
Lost wep: 3-4 seconds after reaching 350TAS at 30k
Climb was pegged past 4000fpm until about 18k, where it dropped to less than 4000. At 22k it was down to 3000fpm. At 26k it was down to 2500fpm. It was closer to 2000fpm by 30k, but never dropped below roughly 2250 fpm or so.


P47N: T/O 1:25pm
5k 1:22 16s pm
10k 1:28 58s pm
15k 1:30 29s pm
20k 1:33 26s pm
25k 1:35 37s pm
30k 1:38 14s pm
350TAS 1:39 25s pm
Lost wep: 1:30pm, 1:34 34s pm, 1:38 14s pm
Restarted wep: 1:33pm, 1:37pm (3 minute cool down, reached 350TAS before restarting a third time)
Climb at all alts was 3000fpm with wep, 2000fpm without (give or take 50fpm), even up to 30k.

Conclusion:
109K4 from takeoff to 30k is 8 mins 9 seconds, and from takeoff to 350TAS @30k is mere seconds under 10 minutes (9 minutes 56 seconds).
P47N from takeoff to 30k is 13 minutes and 14 seconds, and from takeoff to 350TAS @30k is 14 minutes and 25 seconds.

The 109 climbs 50% faster based on time alone. Add to that the P47 ran out of wep 3 times and the 109 didn't run out at all, and I think the better interceptor is still the 109.

EDIT: Note: I still like the 47N for fighting, but I'd not use it to get to alt really fast in order to intercept bombers, that's what I'm concerned with in this thread

[gatt]

I agree with Widewing,

the P-47N and his 8x12,7mm are better for shooting down buffs. You can attack them at very high speed, begin shooting from 800yds, break at 250-300yds, you can even use deflection and under-g shooting. The problem is to get into the right position quickly, since the buff encounters happen usually between 10 and 20K where the P-47N is not as good as the K-4.

With the K-4 is the opposite. If you want to survive and kill, you cannot attack bombers at very high speeds, you cannot shoot from more than 250-300yds, you cannot do deflection shooting, you cannot fire under g-effect. You have to sit on their 5-7 o'clock for at least some seconds. Thats what Sturm Staffeln usually did, with armored A-8 that is ....

That said, I love the K-4, so ... I warp a lot into bombers, I die alot and waste a lot of ammo.

[HoHun]

Hi Gatt,

>With the K-4 is the opposite. If you want to survive and kill, you cannot attack bombers at very high speeds, you cannot shoot from more than 250-300yds

Hm, what do you consider the range-limiting factor?

(In our recent long-range fire discussion, I suggested that the MK108 shoots "true" out to 500 - 600 yards.)

Undoubtly, the 12.7 mm Browning has a longer range, but an 8 x Browning battery has only half the firepower of a  1 x MK108 "battery".

Just as you do, too, the Luftwaffe considered the time the fighter is exposed to defensive fire a major factor. They concluded the 15 mm MG151 was a poor anti-bomber weapon for that reason - and from its characteristics, it could be considered the Browning's bigger, badder brother ;-)

Do you use a long convergence range when hunting bombers with the P-47? (That's what I do in other games, seems to help a lot.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[gatt]

Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Gatt,

>With the K-4 is the opposite. If you want to survive and kill, you cannot attack bombers at very high speeds, you cannot shoot from more than 250-300yds

Hm, what do you consider the range-limiting factor?

(In our recent long-range fire discussion, I suggested that the MK108 shoots "true" out to 500 - 600 yards.)

Undoubtly, the 12.7 mm Browning has a longer range, but an 8 x Browning battery has only half the firepower of a  1 x MK108 "battery".

Just as you do, too, the Luftwaffe considered the time the fighter is exposed to defensive fire a major factor. They concluded the 15 mm MG151 was a poor anti-bomber weapon for that reason - and from its characteristics, it could be considered the Browning's bigger, badder brother ;-)

Do you use a long convergence range when hunting bombers with the P-47? (That's what I do in other games, seems to help a lot.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Hi HoHun,

based on my experience made in attacks against buffs I found that the 30mm is indeed quite good with no-deflection shots. Sometimes surprisingly good up to 400yds and more. But kills in this situation are quite rare in the MA, mostly against pilots with low or no SA or against buffs on bombing run and above all not manoeuvering, you know.

From everything I read on the matter, it seems that the LW considered *two or more* Mk108s the best weapon against heavy bombers. The single nose mounted Bf109 Mk108 (as in the K-4, G-10, G-14 and late G-6) is (from what I read) seldom considered as a bomber killer weapon.

Theoretically the 30mm had much more destructive power but, IMO, a battery of 8x12,7 or even 6x12,7, in our MA, have better chance to hit and shoot down for the reasons I explained above. One more reason is that I can shoot for some seconds more and this could make the difference. Keep in mind that I never (and cant) separate this reasoning from surviving: firing from a high speed Jug with 8x12,7 helps in surviving *and* killing. For the same reason the A-8 4x20mm are much better in shooting down bombers than the single Mk108 in our MA.

As far as convergence is concerned, when I used the Pony or the Jug I always use 400yds for all the weapons and begin firing at 600yds. I got hits on enemies with deflection shooting up to 800yds. The Browning is something incredible to see in action, especially when you are used to the Mauser 13mm or the italian BREDA-Safat 12,7mm  

Disclaimer: everything is based on my (and my squaddies) experience. So, YMMV. You know, just to avoid getting jumped by some loud voice cheerleader