about Lancasters

[Angus]

Come on, it's 30 millimeters! The firepower is stunning, just have to hit!
The .50 cal is almost useless far out against a bomber box, and the box is firing back with a similar firepower.
If I'm gunning a formation of B17's, you'll never survive on my 6 at 250 yards......

[gatt]

Angus ,

the funny thing is that I'm asking for the pods but I keep shooting down heavies (and die ) with the lone Mk108 of my K-4.

BTW, where do you usually fly and gun in your B-17 box?

[Angus]

Fly bishes, all over the place, and use mostly, the Lancaster.
Don't get on my 6 though,

[Krusty]

K4 only good for 250-yard dead-6 shots?!?!? Uhm.... okay apparently only if you don't know how to fly it at all!

It is in fact better to make high speed passes in the 109K4 because you only need one burst to land to do damage. It's the P47N that needs to linger on the shot, because it needs to land more hits on target due to the guns.

109K4 is great for frontal aspect shots, for top down or bottom up, and can be good with slashing attacks from the side if you lead enough.

To say that "Plane A has to sit on a bombers tail to kill it, while Plane B can fly fast and slash away" is silly -- because every plane can make slashing attacks. The ones with heavier cannons especially so, as they don't need as many hits to kill/injure.

EDIT: P.S. even above 20k the 109K4 outclimbed the p47N and matched acceleration to 350TAS. Under 350 (to 200) it outaccelerates the P47N I believe (didn't take notes on the 200mph mark in my test). P47, on the other hand, being 5 times as large as the 109, will present a larger target but probably be able to withstand more fire before being critically damaged.

[gatt]

Krusty,

lets see ... hmmmm, are you the Krusty that in the whole 2005 has flown more or less one TOD with a k/d of 0,63 and got 3 kills in 109G-6 and G-10 (perhaps) against heavy bombers? Are you really that Krusty?

P.S.: you didnt read the above disclaimer, eh?

[HoHun]

Hi Gatt,

>based on my experience made in attacks against buffs I found that the 30mm is indeed quite good with no-deflection shots. Sometimes surprisingly good up to 400yds and more. But kills in this situation are quite rare in the MA, mostly against pilots with low or no SA or against buffs on bombing run and above all not manoeuvering, you know.

So reading between the lines, it seems that in Aces High, the bombers fly evasive manoeuvres, too?

(My own Aces High experience is very limited. I had quite good luck against B-17s with a P-51B, and poor luck against other B-17s with a Ta 152. This might not have been an armament question, though :-)

>From everything I read on the matter, it seems that the LW considered *two or more* Mk108s the best weapon against heavy bombers. The single nose mounted Bf109 Mk108 (as in the K-4, G-10, G-14 and late G-6) is (from what I read) seldom considered as a bomber killer weapon.

Quite right. They figured 7 - 8 hits in random locations were necessary to bring down a bomber with 95% chance, and expected 1 out of 12 shots to hit at 500 m. That meant 88 rounds had to be fired for a 95% kill, and the Me 109 only carried 60 rounds. (Other charts use 5% hits, which would make the ammunition supply even more inadequate.)

Extrapolating from another chart, I'd say 110 hits by the MG151 were necessary, and for high velocity weapons the Luftwaffe expected a slightly better hit ratio of 1 in 10. The MG151 is about twice as powerful as the Browning, so we might use a figure of 220 hits or 2200 rounds fired required to bring down a bomber. (Could be I posted a differing figure in another thread, but hey, it's back-of-the-envelope only :-)

>One more reason is that I can shoot for some seconds more and this could make the difference.

Sounds sensible! If  I remember correctly, the P-47 carries a bit more than the 2200 rounds I mentioned above, so even under real-life Luftwaffe conditions, it would be more likely to bring down a bomber than the Me 109. However, as it only has half the firepower of the Me 109, it would be exposed to return fire for twice as long, which is a bad trade-off. (It probably could fire from farther out, making the return fire less effective, so it's not as disadvantaged as it might seem at first.)

The attractiveness of the MK108 for the Luftwaffe was its low weight. With the Me 109's 60 rounds, gun and ammunition weighed only 95 kg. Eight Brownings with 2500 rounds weighed 507 kg for roughly comparable bomber-killing capacities! (Both weights are for guns and belted ammunition only, mountings etc. are not counted.)

>As far as convergence is concerned, when I used the Pony or the Jug I always use 400yds for all the weapons and begin firing at 600yds.

Hm, I was thinking of real long-range fire against non-manoeuvring bombers, but if they refuse to fly straight and level, that's not an option of course :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[gatt]

Hello HoHun,

in AH there are very good bomber pilots, they fire and manoeuver well, even at full load and high altitude.

Do you have Tony Williams book? There you can find an interesting 1945 (german, I guess) report. They said that 360gr of HE were needed to down a heavy. Assuming a 5% hit ratio and the use of M-Geschoss for all weapons, these are the results (in term of firing time needed):
- 4 x MG151/20: 9,5sec
- 2 x Mk108: 5,0sec
A 10% hit ratio can be considered a good one in AH2 and 4/5 seconds of firing with the AH2's 190A-8 4x20mm are enuff to down an heavy. Same thing goes for the single AH2's Mk108, a couple of seconds or even less are enuff. This can be considered quite accurate

As far as distances are concerned ... hits from 500mt (it means even more yds)? I'd say a *very* difficult shot with AH2's Mk108, especially during a fight or a chase. You should be *very* lucky. I have difficulties to hit even with the MG151/20 at those distances.
Do you have any more info about firing distances using the Mk108 and the MG151/20?

[Bruno]

(My own Aces High experience is very limited. I had quite good luck against B-17s with a P-51B, and poor luck against other B-17s with a Ta 152. This might not have been an armament question, though :-)

Bomber Gunners are more accurate in AH then real life for several reasons all related to 'game play'.

In AH Bomber pilots can up with a 'V-formation' of 3 bombers.  A single 'gunner' can control a whole battery of bomber guns. The Pilot can jump to a gun position and aim all the guns in that 3 bomber 'V-formation' at a single attacking fighter. In AH you can be hit and killed from ranges up 1200yards from bomber gunners, mostly spray and pray at that range but you can still be hit.

The gun positions themselves are completely stable platforms with no 'shake' or vibration. Dispersion on the individual guns (turret, tail, side etc..)is all the same, about 20ft @ 600yards (IIRC from past tests). As such a single player can control all the guns of a 3 plane formation 'Vic' and can throw out a cone of fire that can easily kill at the longest ranges. The bomber pilot also has the ability to fly in 'external views'. He has complete 360 degree unobstructed vision to watch for approaching attackers. In AH icons begin at 6000yards (plane type, friend or foe, range etc..)

It's not set up to be realistic in anyway, the rational most often heard is 'If bombers aren't given a chance then no one would fly them'.

Even with the advantages bombers stand little chance and are most often cannon fodder, not only in the open main but in scripted event and scenarios.

[HoHun]

Hi Gatt,

>in AH there are very good bomber pilots, they fire and manoeuver well, even at full load and high altitude.

That seems to be the key then. The weapon lethality you describe seems to be roughly in line with one could expect, at least.

>Do you have Tony Williams book?

2 of them :-) I have scans of (excerpts of) the original reports, too, and I believe the lower figures are for the 50% probability of kill, judging from a longer, slightly deviating version of the table.

>As far as distances are concerned ... hits from 500mt (it means even more yds)? I'd say a *very* difficult shot with AH2's Mk108, especially during a fight or a chase. You should be *very* lucky.

Hm, even against a non-manoevring target with no deflection?

>Do you have any more info about firing distances using the Mk108 and the MG151/20?

The MK108 of the Bf 109G-6 was sighted for 400 m distance. That means that they meant to use it at least out to that distance, and probably a bit beyond. From the trajectory, the weapon could be sensibly sighted out to 500 m, but drop after that is sharp.

The gondola MG151/20 were sighted for 500 m, but that might have been to make them match the MK108. Convergence range was 300 m, so that meant that they expected to press attacks at least to that range, and probably a bit closer.

For the Fw 190A-8/R1 with 6 x MG151/20, the cannon were sighted for 550 m, but convergence was at 900 m for the wing root cannon and at 800 m for the gondola cannon! I'd say they meant to use all that firepower to kill from farther out, and perhaps to create a large pattern. (I believe the Sturmbock with shorter effective range and the armour to survive the counter-fire was more successful :-)

The standard Fw 190A-8 with 4 x MG151/20 had the cannon sighted for 550 m, too, but convergence range was 600 m for the wing root cannon and 400 m for the outboard cannon, so this indicates a bit shorter ranges.

For the MK108-armed Me 262, standard tactics were to open fire at 600 m range, but as that was during a rapid overtaking attack, it might be that this was to get some tracers into the air just before getting into effective range in order to exploit the short engagement time most efficiently :-)

So Luftwaffe tactics probably expected the following normal engagement ranges:

Bf 109G-4/U4 with gondolas: 450 - 200 m
Fw 190A-8 with 4 cannon: 600 - 300 m
Fw 190A-8 with 6 cannon: 800 - 400 m
Me 262: 500 - 200 m (short range determined by speed :-)

Of course, the Sturmböcke closed to even shorter range, it was not the attacker's weapon that determined minimum range but the defenders' firepower :-)

But the above is what one can sensibly conclude from the information on gunnery setups.

It would be interesting to see the convergence ranges for wing-mounted MK108s, but I haven't seen those anywhere yet.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Krusty]

As a small aside, Gatt, despite the weak attempt to insinuate that I don't have the experience or skill that you do, and thus have no voice, the info you posted isn't right. Not sure where you got it. Last I checked I've got 1.5 K/D and that's without having much time this tour to fly.

[HoHun]

Hi Bruno,

>The Pilot can jump to a gun position and aim all the guns in that 3 bomber 'V-formation' at a single attacking fighter.

I saw that in action, it had a positively robotic air to it :-)

>The gun positions themselves are completely stable platforms with no 'shake' or vibration.

Hm, what about manoeuvres? Apparently, the British corkscrew worked quite well even in daylight, but I believe that it was almost impossible for the rear gunner to hit anything during a corkscrew.

>Dispersion on the individual guns (turret, tail, side etc..)is all the same, about 20ft @ 600yards (IIRC from past tests).

That is about 11.1 mil, which could be seen to represent one of the most accurate turrets.

>It's not set up to be realistic in anyway, the rational most often heard is 'If bombers aren't given a chance then no one would fly them'.

I have often heard that, but people flew bombers in Air Warrior, too, and there you'd not even have a single gunner if you didn't invite another player along before the sortie :-) And there were hardly any volunteers ... and if they got bored in mid-flight, they'd just leave, and you were undefended again :-/

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Karnak]

HoHun,

It is my experience in AH that if I am gunning a bomber that is controled by somebody else I have essentially zero chance to hit anything if he does any manuvering at all.  It is just impossible to compensate for movements that you do not know where they are going.

It is hard to hit anything when you are just using the rudder from the gun position when you know what is going to happen.

[Bruno]

Hm, what about manoeuvres? Apparently, the British corkscrew worked quite well even in daylight, but I believe that it was almost impossible for the rear gunner to hit anything during a corkscrew.

The pilot can control the bomber from the the gun position using his rudder only. In order to cork screw he would need to jump back to the pilot seat thus, no more wall of fire. If he has a gunner (an additional player who has 'joined' his bomber') its been my experience that harsh maneuvering makes them lethal but a more difficult target to hit. I actually had a single lanc (the other 2 having been killed) split esse at 5000ft and pull out, I couldn't due to excess speed.  

You see additional 'players as gunners' mostly in events, in the main its usually 1 player per bomber and he does it all. The smart bomber pilots will simply slide side to side using their rudder and unleash their fire. Small maneuvers but they are effective in avoiding some of the longer range shots.

[gatt]

Thanks HoHun, interesting data. From the 190A-8 Handbook I have it seems that the A-8/R1 had the inner MG151/20's harmonization at 550mt and the crossover at 600mt, but the other pair(s) (gondolas or outer) had the crossover at 800 and/or 900mt. How does it sounds?

Lancs seem to be the best in sharp manoeuvering. I've seen chandelles and something like wingovers done by them (I cant always judge if light or heavy). When you have much speed in excess you can get only a snapshot on them, then reposition and then attack again.
The MA bomber's usual manoeuver is trying to keep you constantly on his six o'clock, since in the Main they dont have to stick with the whole combat box (like in RL, that is).
 
Bruno is right when he says that even with all those (apparent) advantages bombers seldom survive in the Main if attacked in the right way. That said, there are some bomber gunners out there able to kill you quite easily from 700-800yds (on your FE) and while you are manoeuvering. Dangerous but very challenging Anyway, what I see is that bomber formations flying above the main furball are seldom attacked, few gamers want to spend time to climb, position and attack.

Krusty, hmmmm, the score system seems to be broken then .... I checked all your 2005 TODs and the only one with some numbers is TOD #67. If the system does works, then in the whole 2005 you shot down, hear, hear, 6 heavies. Definitely an expert, who can tell whats *silly* and whats not  

[Krusty]

I shot down about 23x b24s, 8x b17gs, and 14x lancasters last tour. This tour I've not had much flight time, only 18x b24s, and 4x b17s and 7x lancasters.