Author Topic: Realism rant...  (Read 2230 times)

Offline eskimo2

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Realism rant...
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2005, 11:31:30 AM »
I want real life pain to be modeled.

eskimo

Offline eilif

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Realism rant...
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2005, 01:10:20 PM »
Posted by lazs2

Quote
planes made it home with no oil or cylinders shot off in radial motors... Nothing we do in the MA would kill a good aircraft engine of the era


I have to disagree with ya there, the main things that jump out against that argument is prop over rev, and engine cooling.

  With prop over rev modled you cant just dive full throttle zooming down 10k to vulch somebody, you have to slow down the prop and if its a manual prop, adjust it to the rpm you need to keep the engine from blowing.

  With a correct cooling/heating system modled your planes, take the p38 J for example, will over heat and blow the engine even if you have wep off and throttle full if you are low and slow tumbling around, there by not allowing enough airflow to cool the engine.   As it is we just cant use the wep for a couple of minuts till it "cools" down. Another wierd thing, the corsairs ran out of boost since it was injected into the engine and they only had a certain amount, so once boost ran out, your done, not in ah:rolleyes:  

I found these things hard to learn how to use and frusterating at times, but it adds a whole new game play element that makes it much more intense when there are more variables at play.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2005, 01:13:10 PM by eilif »

Offline zarkov

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« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2005, 01:23:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
* Historical cockpits/gauges - IL2 gauges are useless. I can't read them on my screen and I was forced to use the numbers at the corner of the screen. I find it less immersive then the new AH2 cockpits. Also, having your units in meters and km/h while others in your coutry speak in feet and mph is annoying. You may fly a german plane but Rook is not Germany or Britain.


Actually, I find the lack of a metric gauges option to be really annoying.  The Imperial system of measurements appears to be the last yoke of the British Empire that the US has not yet cast off; instead, it appears to cling to this last vestige of enslavement like a newly emancipated slave unsure of what to do with his freedom.

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2005, 01:33:46 PM »
While this game is played by many international people, the base of operations (Texas) the country it's run in (USA) and the people that code it (HTC, last I checked all were US Citizens) all use the Imperial system. If it's called that, I'm not sure of the term. We use miles and gallons, and feet.

Considering the following:

1) it's just a game, we all don't really die if we get things wrong so we don't have to have flight training for 6 months. It's easier to use what we already know. Hell it could be worse, we could have "0%" and "100%" instead of 0mph, 550mph, or whatever.

2) IL2 instruments bite the big one. Have to agree there. I NEVER use them. Always find myself saying... "Hm.. now wtf is that instrument?!? What is it telling me? Or is it just decoration!??!" I just use the numbers in the corner. With this proven example of how useless "super realistic" cockpits are, there is a reason we have semi-realistic cockpits. The reason? They work better.

3) While there are many foreign players, by far I'm betting the largest number of subscribers are US citizens. The off-hours always have very few people. The peak US hours are always packed.

So, we know a) the largest demographic of players in the game, b) what instrument system those players will understand and c) that super-realistic cockpits don't function well most of the time, while semi-realistic ones have proven themselves for 6 years now (AH has been going strong for 6 years, right? It's been so long I can't remember).

Offline zarkov

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« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2005, 03:52:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
While this game is played by many international people, the base of operations (Texas) the country it's run in (USA) and the people that code it (HTC, last I checked all were US Citizens) all use the Imperial system. If it's called that, I'm not sure of the term. We use miles and gallons, and feet.


I agree totally.  Which is why I'm puzzled by why you haven't gone your own way instead of clinging to outdated British ways.  But hey, I guess we all need a security blanket but delusional behavior on the part of adults is a little pathetic.  It's like a teenager declaring their independent and don't need their parents and then asking if they can borrow the car.

Offline NoBaddy

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« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2005, 04:07:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by zarkov
I agree totally.  Which is why I'm puzzled by why you haven't gone your own way instead of clinging to outdated British ways.  But hey, I guess we all need a security blanket but delusional behavior on the part of adults is a little pathetic.  It's like a teenager declaring their independent and don't need their parents and then asking if they can borrow the car.


Aaah, you can stop being puzzled. You see we HAVE gone our own way. We chose the Imperial over the metric. See...that was easy. :)
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Offline bozon

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« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2005, 04:42:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by zarkov
I agree totally.  Which is why I'm puzzled by why you haven't gone your own way instead of clinging to outdated British ways.

I see you are from Houston. That is in the US iirc, but I'll check again. I am not an American just for the record and hate imperial measurements.

Still, the world of aviation uses "feet" for alt, "gallons" or "lbs" for fuel and "mph" or "knots" for speeds. Old habits die hard.

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Offline zarkov

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Realism rant...
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2005, 10:57:39 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 09:11:45 AM by Skuzzy »

Offline Brooke

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Realism rant...
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2005, 04:09:44 AM »
Like many things, how much realism is the best depends on the person who is judging and on perspective.  Of great importance, too, is HTC being able to generate money with its product.

In Air Warrior originally, you couldn't do accelerated stalls (like having the stall limiter on at all times), the sim was run in half time, there were no black outs or red outs, there were no spins, each plane had a hit bubble, not independently targetable parts, there was no convergence setting, no drop tanks, the damage model was extremely simplistic, etc.

Then the game was enhanced to allow for accelerated stalls, spins, blackouts, redouts, and for 1:1 simulation timing.  There were a lot of people who didn't want even that much realism.  They didn't want to have to deal with stalls, spins, blackouts, etc.  So Kesmai had a full-realism arena and a relaxed-realism arena to appeal to both camps.  The arenas ended up having comparable attendance.

It is interesting to me to see that, in Aces High (and WWIIOL and some other games), the level of realism is *way* beyond what people got in the full-realism arenas in Air Warrior.  It is into the territory of what people back then worried was unplayable by the mass market.  Yet we see that the game is still accessible enough to draw large numbers of players -- many more than Air Warrior used to have.

This is the aspect of perspective.  My guess is that all of these sims will get more and more realistic over time, and many things that some people today regard as unwanted distraction will end up being accepted as a fine part of the game (much like trim, being able to set gun convergence, blackouts, being able to target different parts of an aircraft, p factor, prop torque, etc.).

Realism also isn't just one axis, with one adjustable parameter to adjust the amount of realism.  There are many axes.  There is realism in how the plane flies and is managed (plane handling, flight controls, engine controls, etc.).  There is realism in how things look (clouds, ground, trees, other aircraft, damage effects, etc.). There is realism in how things are damaged (how guns fire, how they do damage, how bombs are dropped, how they do damage, etc.).  There is realism in the combat environment (what alts fights take place at, which plane sets are fighting, composition of forces, etc.).

It seems that most people want maximum realism in how things look and how damage effects work.

It seems that a lot of people want low realism in combat environment (so that they don't have to fly for an hour for a fight, so that they can fly whatever plane they want, and so on).  Those who want more fly scenarios.  But there is a group that would like everyday flying to have a more realistic combat environment, so it's good to have areas available for both groups of people.  Tour of Duty seems like it will solve this.

Where people are really split is how much realism there should be in how a plane flies and how it is managed.  Maybe the best way to handle that would be to have arenas dedicated to various amounts of realism.  Whether or not that would be worthwhile to do commercially depends on how many people want more realistic aircraft management.  Or maybe it just comes naturally as time goes by.  Again, think about the things people have today that in the past were considered too complicated for any mass market of ham-fisted arcade-game players or that were considered to be unwanted distraction from the fun of flying and fighting:  aircraft trim, control of prop RPM, separate control of different guns with different convergence, prop torque, p factor, spins, even accelerated stalls, blackouts, and redouts.

For me, the most important realism is in aircraft flight and management, followed by damage effects.   I can then get realism in combat environment with scenarios.  Last on my list is realism in visual detail.  That is probably the opposite ordering of a typical Aces High player, though.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2005, 08:13:33 AM »
elph... no... you are wrong.   over revving is probly the only thing that would kill an aircraft engine but... that is not a big deal..model it or not.  It is just not that big of an "engine management" deal... just boring.  Not gonna make everyone a pilot or change gameplay... just add tediousness.

as for overheating... the liquid cooled motors were more vulnerable but.... not for the way we play... slow turning and such for a minute or less would have been nothing.

It probly wouldn't hurt to have fuel injected motors catch fire from any engine hit tho.

radials did come home with cylinders shot off and no oil tho.. that is why the navy insisted on em for carrier planes where the plane needed to get home.

but what difference does if all make?  the griefer gamers will all just continue to pick the plane with the biggest advantage anyway.

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Offline eilif

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Realism rant...
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2005, 07:39:48 PM »
Quote
elph... no... you are wrong. over revving is probly the only thing that would kill an aircraft engine but... that is not a big deal..model it or not.


Quote
as for overheating... the liquid cooled motors were more vulnerable but.... not for the way we play... slow turning and such for a minute or less would have been nothing.


:lol :cry wow! those have to be the most one sided over generalized statements i have heard on a BBS in a long time!  Might want to do some reasurch before you start saying things like that. :noid

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2005, 07:47:32 AM »
I got a better idea... why don't you show me where a plane overheated in a minute or less from dogfighting.

planes would often come back with dry water tanks for their water injection... this took from 5-10 minutes to do... How did they manage to use up all that water?

In a dogfight most pilots just shoved the throttle to the stop and flew the plane till the fight was over.

do you have a reason for wanting to make things worse than they were in real life?   people not sitting still for you to B&Z em?   nasty little turn fight planes dodging your la la?

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Offline moot

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« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2005, 08:05:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
I want real life pain to be modeled.

eskimo

Some people definitely would fight better.
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Offline Squire

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Realism rant...
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2005, 08:36:58 AM »
As an ex Warbirds player I can tell you what killed it.

Lack of development. IEN sat on it and did doodly squat and thought that the $ would roll in forever, and they could just sit back and take a nap. Wrong. We left, and we didn't go back.

Warbirds is actually less "realistic" than AH2, imho, I consider AH2 to be more of a solid sim, in most categories. There was a day when that wasn't true, but not now.

Looking forward to ToD. :aok
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 08:40:07 AM by Squire »
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