Lean to the Left.... lean to the Right

[Wotan]

I agree gruen.

In that american left and right are the 2 arms of the same ameritocracy body politic.

This has little to do with facism/nazism or communism.

My point was with the exception of religious persecution the left has been responsible for more terror world wide historically then the right.


National Socialism has far more in common with communism then it has with liberal democracy.

I dont necessarily believe that ideas are the problem but the fanatical actions that individuals may take in pursuit of an ideal. Especially when they percieve the ideal to be more important then real folks.

This goes for religious or political ideals.

[midnight Target]

My uncle is a logger in Louisiana, 2nd largest logging company in the state. He can tell you about how dangerous the leftist tree rights groups are. He almost died one day when his chainsaw hit a spike put there by some environMENTAL group. The saw kicked back, took off the tip of his nose and burried itself into his left arm all the way to the bone. He was in the hostpital for months, he almost died the day it happened, and then he lost his business because of the long hostpital stay. (this was about 15 yrs ago) Worst thing about the whole thing is that he was cutting trees that my great uncle had planted about 25 to 30 yrs before when his (my uncle's uncle) logging company cut the same field. Oh wait, the property was owned by my family too! The really bad part is that they still find spikes to this day.

 

First of all I am very sorry for the pain and suffering your uncle had to endure. Anyone who would do such a thing as spiking a tree is just stupid and criminal.

Now a loaded question - Why do "tree huggers" or even environmentalists fall into the "leftist" group? Aren't they the most "reactionary" of all? Who wants to maintain an existing situation more than an evironmentalist. I'm thinking very long term here. For example an existing situation may be an old growth forest as opposed to a (relatively) new situation such as logging.

reactionary = right
radical = left

Note: A conservative is a reactionary with brains, a liberal is a radical with 2 kids and a mortgage.  

ameritocracy - Wotan please? what do you mean by this word? American ruling class?

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Tah Gut ]

[Udie]

Originally posted by Tah Gut:


First of all I am very sorry for the pain and suffering your uncle had to endure. Anyone who would do such a thing as spiking a tree is just stupid and criminal.

Now a loaded question - Why do "tree huggers" or even environmentalists fall into the "leftist" group? Aren't they the most "reactionary" of all? Who wants to maintain an existing situation more than an evironmentalist. I'm thinking very long term here. For example an existing situation may be an old growth forest as opposed to a (relatively) new situation such as logging.

reactionary = right
radical = left

Note: A conservative is a reactionary with brains, a liberal is a radical with 2 kids and a mortgage.    

ameritocracy - Wotan please? what do you mean by this word? American ruling class?

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Tah Gut ]

 Well my uncle got some revenge a few years later.  He actually caught 3 hippy dudes on his land spiking his trees, trees that weren't to be cut I might add.  Well let's just say they were lucky that he only beat them up real good.  They are double lucky he didn't have his "gator gun" with him too   My unlce beat 3 dudes up at the same time   that makes me feel strong.

 I'll have to comment on the rest of the post after work, but you've hit on a HUGE issue of reverse definition that I think has occured over the past 30 or 50 yrs...

 I'll be back  

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Udie ]

[Wotan]

no ameritocracy is the uniquely american form of "democracy". Do I need to explain the 2 party system and the electoral college to ya?

a reactionary is any one who doesn't lead but reacts to a given situation.

There are reactionaries on the left and right.

example 400 accidents caused by drunk driving
reaction ban alcohol.

Radicals cant see anything beyond the extreme.

Spotted owls are threatened
Solution stop loggers by any means possible.

you can be a radical reactionary.

Catch phrases and "media" jargon provide little understanding to such complicated things.

Hit the books buddy that sunday newspaper has got you confused.....  

doh your from california ....that explains all .......

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Wotan:
My point was with the exception of religious persecution the left has been responsible for more terror world wide historically then the right.

Can you please quantify this.  

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]

[midnight Target]

no ameritocracy is the uniquely american form of "democracy". Do I need to explain the 2 party system and the electoral college to ya?

No thank you. I honestly had never heard of the word, but I did attempt to look it up in three seperate printed dictionaries and one online dictionary. None of them show the word. Do I need to explain common courtesy to you?  

a reactionary is any one who doesn't lead but reacts to a given situation.

Reactionary - noun - A person who favors a return to a previous, usually more conservative state of affairs, especially in politics; extreme conservative. (that is from the World Book Dictionary) sorry

There are reactionaries on the left and right.

see above definition, and show me where the leftist extreme conservatives are hiding

example 400 accidents caused by drunk driving
reaction ban alcohol.
Radicals cant see anything beyond the extreme.
Spotted owls are threatened
Solution stop loggers by any means possible.

This is a perfect example of a falacious argument. Set a premise that may not exist and tout it as fact. Only radicals would want to ban alcohol or stop logging by any means possible. This has nothing to do with your point, try again.

you can be a radical reactionary.

And that would make you a what? Radically extreme conservative? Read the definition again.

Catch phrases and "media" jargon provide little understanding to such complicated things.

You are absolutely right. Making up definitions to make a point don't help either.

Hit the books buddy that sunday newspaper has got you confused.....

I did, you didn't. This was not a troll for a personal attack on myself. I Honestly had never heard the word before. I still have yet to see it in print other than in your post. You, on the other hand have shown a serious lack of both character and understanding.

doh your from california ....that explains all .......

Um, er, Florida sure has made all us "Ameritocracy" buffs proud lately.

C'mon Wotan, that last post was beneath your standards.

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Tah Gut ]

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Tah Gut ]

[GRUNHERZ]

Tahgut environmental terorrists are leftists.

[midnight Target]

OK Grun, my question is why do you say that?

[GRUNHERZ]

Uhmm because they are...

Well seriously the environmental movement has been taken over by anti-trade, anti-capitalist, anti-democracy mobs. They work hand in hand with anarchists, communists and the Seattle (and whateever other city is attacked )WTO terrorists. Look up that post Ripsnort put up about how all the leftist organizations work together and finance each other.

And yes I have the same stance on environmental issues as I do on civil rights, I think its important to press induistry and society in many ways to improve our environment and adapt technologies to be environment friendly, I hate whacko tree hugger terrorist and reactionary types.


Reactionary?

Exxon Valdez led to violent calls by environment whackos demanding ENDING all oil drilling and transport in Alaska forever.  I suppose thats not "reactionary" to you.


And heres another thing, conservative DOES not neccesarily have to mean right/republican it means conservative or resistant to change and accepting other new or diffrent viewpoints. People on the left can very very and are very conservative. In fact the "conservative" "establishment" force on college campuses is the left wing position.

[midnight Target]

 Reactionary?

Exxon Valdez led to violent calls by environment whackos demanding ENDING all oil drilling and transport in Alaska forever. I suppose thats not "reactionary" to you.

Actually I believe I stated that environmentalists might be considered reactionary in my earlier post.

And heres another thing, conservative DOES not neccesarily have to mean right/republican it means conservative or resistant to change and accepting other new or diffrent viewpoints. People on the left can very very and are very conservative. In fact the "conservative" "establishment" force on college campuses is the left wing position.

That is an excellent point. If "conservative" is resistant to change then you are correct. But what exactly about the establishment on campus is "left wing"? And does it also follow that liberal does not necessarily mean left/democrat?

[Udie]

I don't have time to post this but I'll try anyway  

 It is my belief that the definition of "liberal - conservative" has been flip flopped over the past 30 years.  I consider myself a liberal person, but not by today's definition of liberal   If anything today's liberals are the stonchy old conservative types that people normaly think of as a "republican"  I'm talking your Tom Dashal's ,Fritz Hollings, Ted Kenedy's, Barney Franks, Gephard's, David Boniar's (sp?) they are for the same old party line tax and spend, rich = evil, wealth redistribution, cheatfair throw money at any problem crap that has turned me from the democratic party probobly for ever.  The Republican party of the early to mid 90's was a "liberal" party to me because they stood for something diferent than the status quoe (sp?)

 If you look back through history you see Republicans were the leaders that brought about much of the "liberal change" in our nations history.  Teddy Rosevelt brought us national parks and land conservation (probobly to save good hunting ground   )  Abe Lincoln freed the slaves. There are more.  Another point to be made, there are still left in our congress some of the Democrat Senators who were on the other side of the coin back in the civil rights days.  That guy from South Carolina or what ever state it was that had the big Confederate flag debacle last year.  He is one of their Senators was the govenor when they put the flag over their state capital.  HE was the one that did it back when he was on the wrong side of the racial issue.  Well he didn't say a galdarned thing about it last year, nothing of why HE put it up.

 Somehow the Democrats were able to blame most of the bad stuff they did on Republicans, and I'm not saying that the Reps are spotless.  I think it was because of Mcarthyism, but that's another debate.  But I think it does go hand in hand with the flip flop of definitions.

 I gotta go for now boss just walked up    Probobly a good thing though, I think I'm starting to ramble hehe.

to be continued....

[midnight Target]

I think you make some excellent points Udie. In general I agree about the Demos and GOP. The GOP seems to be the innovators regarding financial policy, while the Demos are the liberals in domestic policy. They cross over the line so much it has become a very gray area as to which is liberal and conservative.  

My biggest problem with the conservative types is their hypocrosy regarding personal freedoms. Conservatives usually say they are for a decentralized government. They want big brother off the back of the people.

However it seems more like they want big brother off the back of big businesses. The GOP continually fights freedom of choice, and other issues that affect individuals as opposed to businesses.

[Boroda]

Unbelievable.

Now I am drunk (a little) and I found out what is so disturbing in this thread.

How can you even dare to compare Communism and nazism?!

You guys enjoy your life and all things because twenty millions of "imbecilic communist bastards" have given their lifes for next generations.

Those who still can employ their brain outside of CNN propaganda envelope - go read "Rebellion" by Albert Camus. He has two great chapters about communism and nazism.

[Udie]

Originally posted by Tah Gut:
I think you make some excellent points Udie. In general I agree about the Demos and GOP. The GOP seems to be the innovators regarding financial policy, while the Demos are the liberals in domestic policy. They cross over the line so much it has become a very gray area as to which is liberal and conservative.  

My biggest problem with the conservative types is their hypocrosy regarding personal freedoms. Conservatives usually say they are for a decentralized government. They want big brother off the back of the people.

However it seems more like they want big brother off the back of big businesses. The GOP continually fights freedom of choice, and other issues that affect individuals as opposed to businesses.

 Right    I have noticed in the last 8 years that Reps and Dems both like big government, they just like it at the oposite ends of the spectrum.   This is why I'm starting to call myself a conservative independent.  I'd say libitarian, but they're pretty wacko on some stuff to me.  The debate on freedom of choice is something I'll always be republican on though, it's a religeous thing   .

 Biggest problem I see in Washington is power.  Both sides will do anything to get it and hold on to it.  Now I do have to say that when I came of age politicly I saw the Dems spewing many more lies and "spin" than the other side.  Now 10 yrs later I see both sides "spinning" each issue telling me "how it is"  Well I can figure that out for myself thank you very much  

 I was hoping that after 9-11 we'd maybe see better service from our government.  Bush has pleased me very much, but the Senate let me down in a VERY BIG WAY last week, guess who controls the Senate    So for now I'm still parked over here on the right.


gotta go again ....


I'm back    Ok the Reps "protect" big business and the Dem's "protect" the little guy.  That's horse manuer to put it nicely    There are more rich democrats in office than rich republicans.  Too many lawyers on both sides.  Ok YES republicans usualy do try and make things easier for big business, but what choice do they have?  Big business is the engine of our country but they're also out for the little guy like me in the form of accross the boards tax cuts.  That will help me TODAY, not in 6 months or a year or two years, it will help me on my first paycheck after it's signed into law.  

 Trickle down economics was touted as the worst concept ever to grace the face of man by the democrats when I was a teenager (yes I remember back then)  Well from what I've seen in my young life trickle down is exactly how it works.  We're seeing it work in reverse right now with the slowing economy.  There's also a trickle up effect too, in that if I don't spend money it doesn't make it to the hands of who I'd be giving it to.  So they don't have it to send it back down the line to their employees.  Taxes are a wrench in the gears of trickle down economics. Taxes stop the money from goign where it should into the economy.  So to me the Dems always wanting to raise taxes is them meddling/effecting my life in an immediate way.

 Now I do have problems with the right too   they're answer to alot of our problems is to simply lock people up or better yet execute them.  I became Republican because I don't like big government and because at the time I viewed them as honest politicians (wow what an oxymoron) and to that point I will say that when the Republicans took over the congress in '94, they did everything they ran on in the election.  Unfortunately once the Dem's "school lunched" them in '95 they lost the wind in their sails and became reactionary.  I think this was because they were more used to operating as the minority than in the majority.  My main problem with the right is criminal justice, and yes John Ashcroft does scare me, but I trust him 1000% more to do what's right for our nation than say Janet Reno.

 I hate getting into good discussions when I'm at work.  I gotta go again    suffice it to say that the world is a big mixed up bag of crap.  I just try the best I can to get the crap that doesn't stink as much out of the bag...

[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: Udie ]